The Instigator
backwardseden
Pro (for)
The Contender
LeeJohnson2
Con (against)

You do not have any free will if you believe in god unless you believe in evil and hate

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/23/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 228 times Debate No: 106990
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

backwardseden

Pro

You show me or anyone where in the bible, anywhere that YOUR christian god says something to the effect of "I the LORD thy god grants man free will." The fact of the matter is, is that it doesn't exist. Not anywhere. So in fact your god does NOT grant you Free Will of any kind. Period. But in truth, I hope you find it because then that would mean that YOUR bible hypocritically contradicts itself YET AGAIN for the thousandth time or so with all of its inconsistencies, because there so many verses that prove that god does not, by any means, grant Free Will.

Another example in fact god shuts you down with Free Will all over his bible. A perfect example of that are the 10 commandments..
Threatening people with death is taking Free Will away.
Thankfully pretty much no one follows the justice followed by the ridiculous mayhem madness god.

The 10 commandments are a perfect example. How can you uphold stupid idiotic laws that have no meaning? If those were to be upheld, as a guess at least 80% of this population would not be in existence or better. But that is what is estimated of those who claim that they are christians who do not read their bible except for once every other week. And that’s only a couple of verses, if that. So they are not true christians.
* Taking thy lord thy god’s name is vein requires being stoned to death (blasphemy).
* Working on the sabbath also requires to be put to death.
* Adultery requires to be put to death* Honoring your parents/ dishonoring cursing at you parents requires you as the child to be put to death. WHAT? The others listed above are what they are. But honor thy mother and father. What? Not if they rape, beat and torture me. Not if they are lousy parents and they do not guide me in my journey through life in growing up. Not if they abuse me such as neglect and for me to be ignored which is the worst form of abuse there is which is what your god did to nearly 100% of those who have EVER walked the earth. Your god HATES children. Yet there’s no commandment to protect children from any kind of harm thus proving that the 10 commandments are trash.

Here's some videos for your beady little eyes to watch to show you how twisted god is with Free Will, the paradoxes, and the evils and hate of it...
- An All Knowing God versus Free Will: The Greatest Religious Contradiction
- Free Will With god
- How god Favors Free Will
- Does god Allow Free Will?

Now let’s look at Free Will from god’s point of view. Well the videos already did that. So you should be brushed up on the fact that god does not have Free Will, so how can man? If you believe in god you do not have Free Will of any kind. Period. Let's look at it from god's point of view because god himself does NOT have Free Will IF he knows his future. After all, how can he if he is omnipotent because he will have already known his choices that have been chosen? That is NOT Free Will. So if YOUR god does not have Free Will and the ability to choose, most definitely man does NOT have Free Will and the ability to choose. Got it? It will only lead you---right---back---here---this---moment------in---time.

Also there's Free Will in hate? That's makes no sense whatsoever IF this god guy is supposed to be loving, caring and kind. Wow what a true MAJOR HYPOCRITICAL CONTRADICTION if there ever was one. But then again, god and the bible are riddled with thousands of hypocritical contradictions and inconsistencies which proves 0 intelligence. If this god guy of yours is omnipotent and cares, with kindness, and love in which there's no way he can because this god guy can---easily---take---the---evil---and---hate---out---of---Free Will such as the brutal rape, beating and torturing of a 6 year old girl as an example. But no, he doesn't. He leaves it in. Thus that absolutely proves that this god of yours IS EVIL(and he freely admits it several times is HIS bible. Would you like the verses?) AND IS BASED ON HATE as he truly hates children and knowingly creates children to suffer. WHAT? What kind of supreme deity PURPOSELY does this? And he freely admits it.

And ah yes, its the children that suffer and its daddy that doesn't get punished when he sticks his you know what inside of his daughter while punching her in the face sometimes twice per week for 17 years as a prime steak example. Sick. But god creates Free Will huh? Um no. Um not a chance. Once again, if god is god loving kind and caring, in which he is clearly not, he can take the evil and hate out of free will. But no. He leaves evil in Free Will. What an artic circle antic laughing lard. So this christian god in which nobody can even prove even exists loves suffering, pain, hate, evil and wow does he prove it. That’s entirely what you believe in IF you believe in god. Don’t you dare shake your head away from it.

Now let's look at it from a child's point of view in which god truly hates children btw and your bible proves. Would you like some direct verses? Nah I didn't think so, because you christians for nearly 100% of you are true cowards and you can't even pay attention to your ignorant bible's when slamped right in front of you. OK ready?
A 4 year old child has no Free Will whatsoever to break free from daddy when he is sticking his you know what inside of his daughter while punching her in the face and sometimes does it for 13 years or longer as I have known someone who has gone through this kind of intense suffering and agony. Your pathetic jesus, in which there’s 0 proof of having ever existing, had it easy in being tortured for 17 hours tops. Oh but wait, its ONLY the religious christian maggots that actually believes that the perpetrator out-trumps the child with his Free Will who in comparison to the child who is treated like trash in your bible who does not get to speak one---single---sentence which is the worst form of child abuse there is, neglect and to be ignored. Well good luck with that you sickened christians because if that were your actual testimony in today's society, the key to your prison of a black hole would be thrown away for the rest of your miserable lives and rightly so.

Where is the daughters Free Will to escape? Ah yes---it---does---not---exist!!!!!!!!!!! And how dare you make the attempt to take the "value" of the perpetrators Free Will to rape innocent children over that of the "value" of children who do not have Free Will. But then again, god truly hates children as just proved. And can be proved in so many other ways. Would you like me to? Nah. I didn't think so. Religious cowards such as you run for cover anytime anything bad is said about your frail fragile demonic god that you do not have the answers for.

Do you fully understand that? god could easily be kind and caring by taking the evil out of Free Will. But he doesn’t. He leaves it in. That right there proves him to be one evil and true hate filled sickened diseased whacko.That is of course if Free Will exists if you believe in god in which case god obviously does not exist. There's no way he can. Its a vicious catch 22. And you are on the short end of the stick, always with no turnabout and absolutely no answer to refute a word as to what has just been said.

What about getting cancer? What about being glued to a wheelchair from birth? What about autism? What about being stung by a box jellyfish? What about an entire family of 5 being murdered by daddy who decides to go on a rampage with his guns because this ignorant country, namely republicans, does nothing to curb guns? Yeah. god gives this jerk Free Will to murder his entire family. Yeah its this family's Free Will to be murdered - correct? Oh so that means god gives Free Will to Hitler, Hong Xiuquan, Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin etc etc. And since when did the victims have Free Will to be mass murdered? Yeah you can not possibly be grown from fertilizer bombs. What about millions of other examples? Oh I get it, that's all Free Will huh? AND YOU 100% KNOW YOU---ARE---WRONG!!!!!! You have the intelligence and education to fully understand and get that something isn't quite right and that something is indeed screwed up here.

Tracie Harris: "Your question was regarding free will as an argument for allowing suffering. That's when you get into the problem of evil. Now the problem of evil as we all know is not an argument that demonstrates that no god exists or that god exists. What it demonstrates is that god is your god is an a$$. What she's telling you is she believes in a god, and I assume she worships this god? Its like is she 'happy' about her god?" Caller: "Oh oh yeah everything except for the old testament." Tracie "In other words what she is saying is 'I love this god who believes that the free will of the rapist is more important than the free will of the child being raped. That I think that its worth it to have a child be raped because I really really put a high value on a rapist's free will.’"

Yeah right, like god is really going to take the chance at someone who is not on track to go ahead a go off the grid and ruin his supposed almighty “plan”? What’s the point in being god if there isn’t that control? What’s the point if that plan is disrupted by some fool who has Free Will and goes ahead with his Free Will and ruins god’s plan because he has Free Will?

Another thing do you really think that if god can create the universe in 6 days, that he is NOT going to control YOU and NOT KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOUR FREE WILL/ CHOICES ARE? Are you insane? Of course he is.

"When she dies does she get to go to heaven? If she gets to go to heaven will she be happy? And she’ll probably say “yes”. And you say “Will you be able to choose and do anything you want while you are in heaven?” And she’ll say “yes.” And so you are basically saying “you’ll have free will in heaven?” So you have free will in heaven and no one is being hurt, raped, so you can do anything you want and no one gets hurt. If god has that power in heaven, he must have that power on earth. So he’s chose not to set that condition/ toggle switch which means he’s a dick." Phil Ferguson


RULES: Prove that you have Free Will accroding to god and the bible and that free will is just and good according to god and the bible and is not baed on evil and hate.








dsjpk5 will not be allowed to vote in the voting process.

LeeJohnson2

Con

Hello! I'm happy to participate in such an interesting and important debate. I hope we both can understand each others views and come to a valid conclusion at the end. Having said that, there are TWO major red flag with my opponent's argument:

1. There's clear biased in his whole argument. Sure, there are some heartfelt arguments towards their stance on Free Will, but nothing of substance.

2. They provide NO evidence to support their claim; I'll not be merely persuaded by ethos or pathos. With this in mind, I will also be ignoring the YouTube videos, with the exception of one statement made in the last video, but I'll be addressing that later.

For years, Atheist's have accused Christian apologetic's of believing in such an immoral prophecy God has put forth; which is, Free Will. The Atheist community faces faulty accusations and problems within their own arguments, causing confusion on all sides of the discussion. I, on the other hand, will be representing the philosophical view on Free Will. My opponent has based their position on one question:

1. How can God allow evil and suffering in the world?

For the sake of brevity I will consider two contentions:

1. Kant's view
2. Utilitarian view (as exemplified by John Stuart Mill)

Kant famously takes the view that "A good will is good not because of what it performs or effects, not by its aptness for the attainment of some proposed end, but simply by virtue of the volition" that is, it is good in itself, and considered by itself is to be esteemed much higher than all that can be brought about by it in favor of any inclination "Its usefulness or fruitlessness can neither add to nor take away anything from this value."

For Kant, what makes a willing (decision) good or evil is contained in the act of willing itself. Hence, there would be no need to consider the consequences of an action stemming from a decision when determining the morality of the choice. An interesting illustration of this view can be found in Bioware's Star Wars the Old Republic game. Players are often given a chance to select between light side (good) and dark side (evil) options, thus earning light side or dark side points which determine the moral alignment of the character. For example, a player might have to choose to kill or spare a defeated opponent. Conveniently, the choices are labeled with symbols indicating whether a choice is light side or dark side which would be very useful in real life.

If Kant's view is correct, then God could allow the freedom of the will while also preventing evil choices from having any harmful consequences. For example, a person could freely chose to rape a woman and the moral choice would presumably be duly noted by God (in anticipation of judgment day). God could then simply prevent the rape from ever occurring the rapist could, for example, stumble and fall while lunging towards his intended victim. As another example, a person could freely will the decision to murder someone, yet find that her gun fails to fire when aimed at the intended victim.

In short, people could be free to make moral choices while at the same time being unable to actually bring those evil intentions into actuality. Thus, God could allow free will while also preventing anyone from being harmed.
It might be objected that God could not do this on the grounds that people would soon figure out that they could never actualize their evil decisions and hence people would (in general) stop making evil choices. That is, there would be a rather effective deterrent to evil choices, namely that they could never bear fruit and this would rob people of their free will. For example, those who would otherwise decide to rape if they could engage in rape would not do that because they would know that their attempts to act on their decisions would be thwarted.

The obvious reply is that free will does not mean that person gets what s/he wills it merely means that the person is free to will. As such, people who want to rape could still will to rape and do so freely. They just would not be able to harm anyone.

It is, of course, obvious that this is not how the world works people are able to do all sorts of misdeeds. However, since God could make the world work this way, this would suggest various possibilities such as God not existing or that God is not a Kantian. This leads me to the discussion of the utilitarian option.

On the stock utilitarian approach, the morality of an action depends on the consequences of said action. As Mill put it, "actions are right in proportion as they tend to promote happiness, wrong as they tend to produce the reverse of happiness." As such, the morality of a willing would not be determined by the willing but by the consequences of the action brought about by the willing in question.

If this is correct, then God would need to allow the consequences of the willing to occur in order for the willing to be good or evil (or neutral). After all, if the willing had no consequences then it would have no moral significance on a consequentialist view like utilitarianism. So, for example, if a person freely wills to rape a woman, then God must not intervene. Otherwise He would be interfering with what determines the ethics of the willing. As such, if God did not allow the rapist to act upon his willing, then the decision to rape would not be an evil decision. If it is assumed that free will is essential to God being able to judge people for their deeds and misdeeds, then He would have to allow misdeeds to bear fruit so that they would be, in fact, misdeeds. On the usual view, He then punishes or rewards people after they die.

"You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love." - Galatians 5:13
"Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own." - John 7:17
"Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves." - Romans 13:2

Sources:
1. http://ethics.sandiego.edu... ---> Kant's view
2. http://www.mesacc.edu... ---> Other stuff about Kan't view
3. http://blog.talkingphilosophy.com... ---> God, rape & Free Will
4. https://www.biblestudytools.com... ---> Bible verses
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

Season beatings. Oh whooppss I meant to say greetings even though that la la bye time is over for the year (and my opponent thought I blocked him = nope) but he"s headed into a meat wagon of dreary dreams in which is penalty kicks are back at the opposing 0 yard line from the videos which are of pure logic, common sense, rational, reason, thinking based in which christianity, god, the bible and his religion has none. He"s an eager beaver isn"t he to prove his bias for his schmuck-dumb religion for which there is no fact base because after all he cannot even prove his god. So let"s see what he has to say to counter the videos. If he does not counter the videos, this debate will be over in a hurry.

"1. There's clear biased in his whole argument. Sure, there are some heartfelt arguments towards their stance on Free Will, but nothing of substance." Typical christan yodeling Buddhist monk response when utterly slapped in the face with substance and no outs left. So let"s see what #2 has to say (my this debate can be over in a hurry because I will not tolerate idiocies and sheer utter stupidity like that)

"2. They provide NO evidence to support their claim; I'll not be merely persuaded by ethos or pathos. With this in mind, I will also be ignoring the YouTube videos," Then I will be ignoring everything he has to say. This debate is now over. My opponent has lost this debate because he cannot and will not examine evidence which solidly proves EVERYTHING of his religion flatly wrong which is what the typical christian is totally incapable of taking in.

Conclusion
My opponent has pulled this crap before on another debate. It doesn't matter a F--K where the videos come from. If he wants transcripts, they could come from somewhere else other than youtube. Some of the videos were made outside of youtube and then placed on youtube to get more recognition. But I guess my opponent thinks that diminishes the content of what the videos has to offer for some stupid reason that goes on in his tinsel brain. Some of the videos are made specifically for youtube so that others WILL WATCH THEM and get something from them and nevertheless the content remains the same. He expects me to vidie the links he posted. Is he serious? Is he THAT stupid? Like they are REALLY more valid than something posted on youtube? I do get it indeed... According to him, IF HIS LINKS WERE POSTED ON YOUTUBE, they would indeed be worthless. That is his complete failure. That is why he has lost this debate.
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Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by LeeJohnson 6 months ago
LeeJohnson
I wonder why he blocked me... If you think my logic is always faulty, then let me debate you on this topic, and prove me wrong.
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