The Instigator
iflybyyou
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
FanboyMctroll
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

You pick

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/27/2017 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 6 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 468 times Debate No: 105349
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (7)
Votes (1)

 

iflybyyou

Con

Pick a topic and a position and I will argue against it. Since I am not the one picking, I suppose I will just post an introduction instead of an argument.
Hi,I am an anonymous user here to sharpen myself intellectually and expose the absurdity of every belief, glad to meet you. I'm sure we will have a lot of fun, especially since I am not here to win and I am only here for the sheer pleasure of criticizing a philosophical position. I will not reveal any of my beliefs, nor will I ever take a side. I will simply revel in the intellectual pleasure of debate without any personal testament.
FanboyMctroll

Pro

Ok lets debate. Here is the topic. I'm going to be pro on this

It's better to be a criminal then an honest person, you tell me why being a law abiding citizen is better then being a criminal (better life). I will jump right in and post my first argument for pro being a criminal, lets go

In today's capitalistic society most success is measured by the amount of fortune or money a person possesses. I'm going to argue for being a criminal. Criminals are the ones with the big mansions, the fancy Ferrari cars and all the best dinner locations, women, parties, jewelry , while the honest hard working person gets by with barely making ends meet unless you are Bill Gates, most people have to work very hard and they will never live in a mansion or drive a Ferrari. If I'm a big criminal, I can have anything I want, so what, that the law is after me and I might not sleep good at night, with some highly paid lawyers I will get off and live the dream, while the honest person will just have to settle on the fact that they don't have a guilty conscience.
Debate Round No. 1
iflybyyou

Con

Great topic! So these are my points
A. The fallibility of the human mind makes it nearly impossible to make it through life as a criminal. Because of the human tendency to make mistakes, the risk of being caught is very high.
B. Humans being social beings, means that the life of the criminal would backfire. Most people perceive themselves as law abiding citizens who would be loathe to be friends with a criminal. Because of the negative perception of criminals as well as the necessity of keeping to yourself in order to minimize risk, there would be very few options to meet your social needs.
C. The purpose of the law: the law actually keeps order that aids in our survival as a human race. Without decent laws, the world would be in nuclear chaos and have a lack of environmental regulations. This not only creates a moral need to work within the law, but a logical necessity in order to survive.
D. The lack of intrinsic reward: the life of a criminal does aid in achieving great wealth and status, but there is no intrinsic reward in being a criminal. Unless you were a psychopath, you would have to go through great lengths to justify your actions to yourself, and although morality is pretty much subjective, cultural influence makes up half of of psychology. This means that you would be at war between your conscious desire to achieve greater wealth and your environmental conditioning, causing a large amount of cognitive dissonance that you would have to go great lengths to repair.
E. Not everyone shares that definition of success. If everyone's goal was to make money, then why do so many people pursue goals outside of becoming rich? And 'living the dream' is a very subjective way of looking at it. Some people dream of utopia, others dream of romance, and still others dream of going to space, and while money is required for all of those things, many people do not have the end goal of being rich. I will however concede that on the basis of a person's ever changing whims, if their goal is to make money, being an immoral and unlawful person is the most reasonable course of action.
FanboyMctroll

Pro

Although most criminals do end up dead or in jail, they live the life of luxury and do not have to engage in the grind of everyday work life such as traffic jams getting to work, the 9-5 hours and the boredom of every day life such as discussing the weather around the cooler at work or chatting with neighbors about your lawn. Criminals live somewhat exiting lives with the law breathing down their necks. It's not for the faint hearted but it's exciting and stressful with turf wars and other criminals competing with you.

But if you want to look at it from the financial side, criminals can make millions of dollars, buy all they toys they want and get all the women/men they want and have all the material things that most people can only imagine to have. I would also like to point out that there are many white collar criminals who live lavish lives thanks to fraud, pyramid schemes and corporate scams. Just look at Bernie Maydoff, how many mansions and cars did he have. Sure he is in jail now but he lived a pretty lavish life for a while and with the champagne and caviar and women he got to live like a king even if it didn't last forever. The problem is criminals do not know when to walk away. Just make your millions and retire from crime while the honest person works their tedious job for 40 years so they can retire on a measly little pension. The criminal is the one with the mansion the fancy cars and the freedom to do what they like, while the honest person can only say "I did the right thing" and I'm still struggling to make ends meet.

Lets see how my opponent makes life as an honest law abiding citizen sound more appealing then being a criminal.
Debate Round No. 2
iflybyyou

Con

A. you talk about life as a criminal being 'appealing', but appealing from what standpoint? Personal appeal is not only subjective, but also fickle and constantly changing, therefore your viewpoint is not applicable across all situations
B. even from your idea of what's appealing, which I take to be composed of 3 facets, money, sensual thrill, and lack of responsibility, those 3 facets are unattainable in a realistic sense. You would still have to do tedious work to get rich even by breaking the law if you don't want to get caught, and being in prison is worse than even the most average life. On top of that, the more you escape, the tougher the prison you get put in, which will eventually create a dead end with no way around it. Finally, in order to successfully pull off that kind of life, you would have to have world class skill and talent, and if you're going to slave over that, you might as well live an honest life.
C. Your idea of an appealing life is still possible to achieve without criminal acts, and realistically criminal behavior only jeopardizes your ability to get rich rather than aids it because of the amount of money that would need to be spent on protecting yourself from the police. There are also plenty of examples of successful and well educated law abiding individuals, Bill gates being a conceded example. Also, is it really possible to thoroughly enjoy your wealth when you're in constant threat of losing it unless you drug yourself, which will only increase your chances of being caught due to damaged cognitive function?
FanboyMctroll

Pro

Those are excellent points so here are my debates to them.

A. Criminal life is the lifestyle that all people desire minus the crime. Everyone wants to live in the mansions and drive the fancy cars and live the lavish life. Yet they can't so they go back to their menial work life. Just think sitting by the pool all day drinking martinis after you just scored a big hit. You have all the time off to enjoy your life. You pay off your gang, pay your lawyer and enjoy the luxuries that most can't afford.

B. The tedious work of planning a money heist, a robbery, going over the blue prints of the bank, drug smuggle, law enforcement shift changes, observing of staff for weaknesses, sound AMAZING, better then sitting in some office on a keyboard all day or discussing bar graphs at a meeting Yawn!! Prison is actually a great place for recruitment of new gang members plus making new connections once you get outside, new areas to hit, new money potential, plus there is always someone in there that will have a new plan to get rich that might be plausible to consider. And I get 3 free meals, I don't pay rent, and I get free education, what can be better then that??? I don't have to play bills, man I'm laughing. I have plenty of world class and talent, the key is research, research research, only the dumb idiots go in with a shotgun to a convenience store and rob it for $22.00. I'm talking about elaborate plans that haul millions, fencing Picasso & Gogan's after you rob the art gallery. Smuggling thousands of pounds of coke from Mexico or Columbia, running guns to Mexico, the career options are endless. But the key is to plan, plan for a long time, sometimes 6 months to a year of just surveillance. But I will take that over your measly $50,000 a year salary for being someones bitch at an office.

C. You get what you paid for, I want millions, I need to have a million dollar lawyer on retainer to get me off on any possible charges, after all I am a legitimate business man in the eyes of the law, prove any of it. I strictly work in imports and exports (not) but that's the story the judge and cops get. I also have enough body guards who get compensated very well and most make more in a month then an average person does in a year. So I'm not worried about security. Besides I can buy off anyone, money talks. Hey did you want to join my organization?? I bet I can get you to join, everyone has a price. What's yours?? I can start you off with 300K now plus a Lotus or do you want a Ferrari? I'm looking for new heist area Manager and need an inside man to scope out potential art galleries and government institutions. Dress code, Armani pin stripe suit, what's your size?

Criminals live the life, I will let the lawful good overachievers work hard and pay those taxes, I have to go I hear my name being called at the pool bar down here in Bora Bora
Debate Round No. 3
iflybyyou

Con

A. to say that everyone wants they same thing is a huge leap to make, and not even a logical one. Theoretically, in order to prove that assumption, you would have to explain away all the statements made by people who aren't in it for the money as well as prove through 7 billion surveys that everyone on earth wants to be purposelessly rich. This makes your argument non falsifiable at best and apparently and obviously wrong at worst.
B. To say that you have world class skills is also a very big, and also immodest thing to say. If you truly have a world class level ability to plan and scheme as well as a unstoppable amount of knowledge and research capability, then why are you wasting your time on an amateur debate forum? Why aren't you getting out there and making money like you say you could? And better yet, what difference would it make in your ultimate goal of making money whether you do it morally or immorally if you truly have a beyond exceptional level of skill and intelligence?
C. you clearly overlook the philosophical problem of being a kingpin. The more power you have, and the more you exert it, the more likely you are to lose it. All you need is someone who has a moral or personal problem with the way you run things and that could be enough to plant the seed of rebellion. Your organization would be in constant civil war and at risk of being busted by your own members. Who can you trust when everyone in your crime organization has the same Chaotic evil alignment you do? you would have tons of people plotting against you, and the lawful evil people would be even worse, because they would be more likely to bust you than to kill you. You'd be better off without a crime organization, which ultimately would invalidate your method of achieving wealth since that method would require loyal henchmen who wouldn't bust you if you didn't give them a pay raise.

I'd also like to add that the moral alignment system is an unscientific system invented by gaming nerds who wanted a category to put themselves in. In reality, behavior is driven by values, traits, and beliefs, as well as the person's perception of the situation at hand. There is no such thing as moral alignment, and morality is really just a set of core values that a person acquires through exposure to teaching and cultural conditioning. Using the moral alignment system in a philosophical argument is no better than using the DIvergent factions in a psychoanalysis.
FanboyMctroll

Pro

A. Everyone is in for the money because everyone in the world works for money. Money is what operates the world. That is why EVERY country in the world has a currency in their country. The world revolves around money. The only people who would not have money would be slaves. So that is almost 8 billion people. Out of the 8 billion I would say 6 billion or clearly 3/4 of the population is looking to get rich somehow. That is why most people gamble, play lotteries, work do whatever for money. Money is the life line of civilization. Anyone denying that fact is just full of it. People all work for money, nobody goes to work for pleasure, everyone has bills and needs to eat and guess what that costs money. So your logic is flawed.

B. I'm on this website because I'm bored right now and I get a chance to have these wonderful debates and discussions on here in between big jobs I have to do. Money and wealth gives me the freedom to have free time between big heists and it's nice to have a friendly debate once in a while. I mean why are you here, not even picking a subject to debate but simply saying "You pick", that is a pretty general question and not picking a specific topic shows me that you are on here also to just debate because you didn't present a specific debate topic. So why are you on here wasting your time on like you say "amateur debate forum" my point exactly.

C. The problem with being a Kingpin is that you need loyal dependable staff, just like any work place you need to hire dependable people that know who is the boss. I make sure to hire staff that is loyal but I also let them know they could be gone and lose that money train that they need. I hire staff that is down and out of their luck, people who are in the dumps and need a helping hand. This way I provide their income, I reward them for good jobs done but I also let them know, they fvckup and they will be back in the gutter from where I got them from. I don't necessarily hire overachievers who think they can stab me in the back and take over my position. I don't need people like that, I need loyal men who had sh!tty breaks in life and need a hand in exchange for services done on my behalf. There are no rebellions, I quash any form of discontent right away. You work for me or you will be shoveling crap out of dumpsters if you cross me. My staff do not need constant pay raises, this is not an office. They get other things, women, coke, time to kick back, they don't have to deal with a shitty work schedule, a boss, meetings and boring office jobs. We are more like the group in Oceans 11, 12 or 13, everyone has their place and job, and in the end we score big and we are gone for a few years.

I don't get your final paragraph about moral alignments and gaming nerds??? I don't know what you are talking about there. If you are referring to the fact that being a criminal is not moral, I would like to just say that every person that I talk to that is not a criminal always says "Some day you will be caught and put in jail" To which I say "Every loser says that, while they stare at my hot women and fast cars with glee while wishing they had a mansion like mine" LOL
Debate Round No. 4
iflybyyou

Con

A. Everyone works for money not for the sake of money, but for the abstract things it represents such as food, water, and pleasure. The vast majority of people are not looking to get filthy rich to any means other than the goals that they have for themselves, so most people would stop once they are satisfied. To work for the sake of money is a trait that is seen with groups of people who are more caught up in status symbols and lack the ability to think critically about what they really want. And as for getting rich through criminal means, most people would be loathe to do that because they perceive themselves to be good honest people and self-righteously hold themselves to that standard. As for money running the world, it doesn't. It is only a measure of what really does run the world like gold, silver, and other resources. The value of money is constantly changing based on how much of those things are present in the country where that currency is used. So if you really want to run the world, gather nukes and rare items and develop your own currency. Again, in order to prove that people want money, you would have to survey 7 billion people and establish that, but when people answer surveys asking what they truly value, the top answers are things like family, safety, justice, and fun, but I have not yet seen a single body of research that has put 'wealth' as the only top value.
B. That's wonderful, but you did not prove my original point about how your claim to be a world class criminal can be taken seriously. So far, I have not seen evidence that you are anything beyond average or faintly above average at best. As for why I am on here, I am just honest enough to admit that I am not Stephen Hawking and I need to sharpen myself in order to become great. Humility is a world class quality that drives people to develop world class skill, and without that quality, one can never be any better than they are. The fact that you have shown more evidence for lacking humility than having it, throws doubt to how you can really have world class skill.
C. In order to create staff who are loyal to a criminal, you would have to brainwash them into thinking that there is no other way out. While this strategy can work for a while, it will not work for long. All you need is one person who has doubts to question the wrong person about it and your organization is toast. Similar things have happened to other criminal organizations. The people who have been successful as professional criminals are small groups of independent contractors, whereas nearly every large mob of cartel has been stopped or at least discovered. Like I said, whether you play the kingpin mob boss or the independent hitman, you are only minimizing one risk while maximizing another. And considering that not only you are speaking from personal experience, but also that you have not proven your status as a real life criminal, the bulk of your argument for this point is little more than fictional, invented absurdity.

And about the moral alignment system, I was saying that it is unscientific rubbish that is not valid for a serious intellectual argument. A better alternative would be to drop the whole Lawful good, chaotic evil 9 type psychobabble, and instead measure them separately as lawfulness and benevolence on 2 Continuous scales, or better yet, consider the whole thing the fiction that it is and conform to contemporary psychological research on morality.
FanboyMctroll

Pro

A. Being a criminal gets you more money, more gold more of whatever you want, yes it's illegal by human made laws but it's easier and you get a lot more of it when you are a criminal, because you are not being honest and sharing the pie, you take the pie.

B. Did you want me to post my resume for you on here, best criminals are the ones you haven't heard of because they stay under the radar, especially from law enforcement. That is why we have the dark web, that is why criminal organizations work at night, out of the public eye, there is more corruption then you can imagine, but it's the public outcry and protests and law changes that affect criminal activity, that is why criminals stay out of the lime light, now you want me to expose myself to you for the sheer pleasure of a debate. Did you know ICE and Customs only apprehend 5% of all contraband coming into the country, why is that because they don't have the manpower to search every single vehicle , plane and ship, besides the wait times at the border would be days not mere minutes. Corruption, organized crime, criminal activities are only mentioned on the news as mere fractions of what really happens. You think all those mansions in your neighborhood are from hard working people, think again, it's proceeds of crime.

I have no clue what this world class babble you are discussing on here, means, what does that have to do with a criminal being better then an average slave working Joe

C. My workers are my toy soldiers, I put the battery in their backs, they are my toy soldiers because I provide their income to make a living. Just like a boss at any organization, most people are sheep that will stay at their same place of work for 30 years, because people don't like change, well I have regulars that have been with my crew for a long time because they get compensated well. yes sometimes we have resistors, last week Max lost his head, started talking sh!t and pulled out a chrome 45 and ended up dead.

Mexican cartels and Columbian cartels, do you see them going out of business?? Only losers always promise that next time the criminal will be caught, I don't know how many times I have heard that while sipping my fancy umbrella drink on the beach while I watch the honest hard working person on their laptop on vacation still working because they are afraid to lose their job if they don't check their e-mail.

I have heard it all, as I walk out of the courtroom not guilty with my lawyer, ya ya, next time you will get me, every loser always says that.

And if you want to talk about the morale compass as in good vs bad, criminal vs honest person. I would say it's slightly favored in the honest person side of things, only because most are too lazy and unambitious to plan serious criminal activities, they would rather have their regular commute to work, sit by the water cooler debating and do their boring routines, so they wish they had money but I'm fine with it, less competition means bigger and more criminal activities for me.

Being a criminal is way better then being an honest person. I take what I want and I'm living the dream, no limits, I will let the honest person worry about their credit check, bi-laws, and their lame uneventful lives. Being a criminal is way more exciting and rewarding. catch me if you can LOL
Debate Round No. 5
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by FanboyMctroll 6 months ago
FanboyMctroll
It's a tie!!!

That means half the people like being criminals and half the people like being good.
Posted by ignoranus 6 months ago
ignoranus
I'd also think one may refrain or not give any consideration to such a path because the ambition for what they want (which may require wealth) does not override the improbability of it all. Or that the want itself is not strong enough in which they feel compelled to obtain it through such risky means.
Posted by FanboyMctroll 6 months ago
FanboyMctroll
Wow YOUNGFEARTHEGHUS,you really have no clue how the world revolves do you. Did you just get released from a juvenile half way house?

I feel like I'm a calculus teacher explaining calculus to a 6 year old.

I already debated this before, how the world is run by money and corruption. You think Trump became a president through his hard work, yeah right, the whole system is corrupt, but you will find that out after you get shafted on your first career job for trying to be a lawful good, and the crooked guy who brings in more money gets the position. It's all about money and corruption, that's how the world operates. And everyone has a price. Time for you to go back to your Superman PJ's and your lawful good ideas

http://www.debate.org...
Posted by FEARTHEGHUS 6 months ago
FEARTHEGHUS
You say the world is run by corruption and money, but it's really run by people working, gaining resources, using resources, etc. It's run by many things, money is just a measurement of those things. A corrupt person can have money, but money itself is not a corrupting force, and if you're talking about people cheating their way to the top using the government, that is literally the opposite of capitalism, and that's why the most effective countries are the ones with governments that have less power. A CEO isn't a thief unless he is using the government to cheat his way to the top, any other way is completely legitimate, unless of course you mean by direct theft, or murder, etc.
Please do not tell me I have a lot of growing up to do, you show how arrogant you are by doing so, and it certainly doesn't help you to pursuade me. Criminals tend not to win in the end, and they certainly don't win in the afterlife.
Posted by FanboyMctroll 6 months ago
FanboyMctroll
You got me all figured out, I want guns gone, so I can be a successful criminal.

Also all the rich people are rich because of proceeds of crime, don't fool yourself thinking those people legitimately made their money, with few exceptions like Gates, most rich people used the rouse of political bribery and gain to get to where they are. Criminal activity is what runs the world. tax shelters in off shore accounts, Panama papers, you don't think Trump is part of that.

You still have a lot of growing up to do. The world is run by corruption and money. Criminals always win in the end. They just masquerade like hard working successful people so they can fool you into buying in. No honest person owns a 10 million dollar mansion and 3 Ferraris in the driveway, unless they are a celebrity. Even CEO's don't make that kind of money, it's all proceeds of crime
Posted by FEARTHEGHUS 6 months ago
FEARTHEGHUS
Another note about FanboyMcTroll, you are about to argue that being a criminal is the correct decision, while you argue in another debate that the second amendment should be abolished because police are good enough to stop the criminals, either you want to make a world where crime is low risk and keeps its high reward, so that you can be a successful criminal, or you are just trolling for the fun of it, as your name suggests.
Posted by FEARTHEGHUS 6 months ago
FEARTHEGHUS
I don't know of many criminals who live in large mansions with expensive cars and lots of women, I do know successful businessmen who brought a lot of good to society like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Donald Trump, and even in our past we had renowned business men like Henry Ford. All these people did or are doing great service to society, that's why they're rich and successful. Henry Ford personally advocated for being as morally right as possible, and that if you helped society as much as you could, the money would handle itself, he never worried about how much profit he made, and he made a lot of profit anyway, because in a capitalist system good acts are rewarded with wealth of some form, be it money, allies, knowledge, etc.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2 6 months ago
BryanMullinsNOCHRISTMAS2
iflybyyouFanboyMctrollTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:00 
Reasons for voting decision: Tie