The Instigator
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Commondebator
Con (against)
Winning
9 Points

Your Existence is Justified By Burning in Hell Forever, if Not By the Blood of Jesus Christ

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Commondebator
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/13/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 496 times Debate No: 61648
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (2)

 

LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

Many people say that their existence is God's fault, so they are think they are justified no matter what they have done, do, or will do. Because God caused them to come into existence He has no right to punish them for being the imperfect creatures they were born as. They are wrong. God proved His right to punish them by becoming a man like them and paying their penalty in death. Because He is God and had no sin of His own to pay for, death could not hold Him. He shed his blood so that He can overlook my sin (and yours if you are in agreement with Him) because eternal burning in Hell can never take away my sin.....He ook my sin away when He became sin for me and took my death. I am justifed in His resurrection through faith in His blood. The only other way for my existence to be justified would be in the fire of Hell where all who are turned against God belong.

Many religious people think they gain the right to eternal life, paradise, heaven, or Nirvana by the things they do such as acts of altruism or by following a code of conduct to display honorable character. This is the way of Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism and all of it's offshoots such as Buddism and Bhai (which mingles Islam and Hinduism), Mormonism, Satanism and all of it's offshoots such as Wicca and parapsychology, Paganism, Judaism, Seventh Day Adventism, and any others which are less known and more easily forgotten. All religions focus on what you can do to attain eternal life in whatever mode or state is taught by that religion. Atheism, the religion of anti-religion, teaches that your eternity is void of pain or pleasure, so in atheism you live for the moment as your eternity. Atheism is the most bankrupt of religions, and Satanism is the most evil. All religions are evil and bankrupt, some more so than others. Jesus Christ is a person through whom you can know God personally. You can know that you have eternal life now and your sins are forgiven now and forever if you A) Admit that you deserve to die now and burn in Hell forever as a sinner who is turned against God. B) Believe God loves you and does not want you to burn in Hell, so He Himself paid for your sin with His own blood as The Son of God, and rose from the grave bodily so you can be free now from the penalty of Hell which is given against sin. C) Call on God in the name of the One who paid for your sins with His blood, Jesus Christ, to save you.

No priest, Pope, or religious lifestyle can get you to heaven or buy favor from God. God will never owe you anything no matter how much you give to other people even if you say you are doing it in God's name. The only thing that can justify your life is the blood of Jesus Christ. The only thing that can justify your death is the fire of Hell which is the end of sinners if they reject God's offer of pardon for their sins based on the fact that He paid in full for them with His own blood in Jesus Christ.

My opponent has stated "As a Catholic I would argue that we are indeed justified by faith in Christ and his atoning sacrifice on the cross, but that this alone does not cut it, as we need to cooperate with Grace through works. If it is this that you are defending I would gladly take the side of the Council of Trent, if what you are debating is whether or not we deserve hell if we were not redemed by Our Lord then I will not argue with you, as I agree wholeheartedly.


My answer to this is that if you are not redeemed now, you are not redeemed forever. Redeemed means the price was paid to satisfy a debt to buy back a piece of property. My debt was paid by God Himself to buy me back from Hell. I am redeemed now, I am saved now, I have eternal life now, I am forgiven now. For this debate, I am not interested in the Council of Trent. That has to do with church history. This is not a church history debate. This is a philosophy debate about how you justify your existence outside of the fire of Hell. How are you justified?


Please focus on philosophical arguements and not on historical supports of your arguments outside of the bood of Jesus Christ shed for the sins of mankind approximately 2000 years ago.

Your Existence is Justified By Burning in Hell Forever, if Not By the Blood of Jesus Christ
Commondebator

Con

I would like to ask a question before I present my argument.

1. Gandhi was not a christian. Hitler, on the other hand was a Christian. If hitler asked to repent he's sins, he would go to heaven? Lets say Gandhi did not accept Jesus into he's heart. Gandhi deserves to burn in hell? Even though Gandhi's actions outweigh the bad deeds in he's life, a benevolent god will forget all that? Gandhi deserves to burn in hell because he was Hindu?

"All religions focus on what you can do to attain eternal life in whatever mode or state is taught by that religion"

Please provide further evidence or sources to make that statement true.

"All religions are evil and bankrupt, some more so than others"

I find this a contradiction to your previous statements. I believe that you are a follower of Jesus? You also believe in the Bible, I am assuming? Please do correct me if i am wrong. If I am correct, then you are a Christian. Christianity is a type of a religion. If you say religion is evil, then Christianity is also evil.

Definition of Christianity: the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies

Source:http://i.word.com...

Also, what is your evidence of hell? If your reply is the Bible, how do you know that the
Bible is a reliable source of evidence? If you say "it's the word of god", where is your evidence that the Bible is a word of god?

"Admit that you deserve to die now and burn in Hell forever as a sinner "

What? How does anyone deserve to die? God wants you to die and burn in hell forever? How is god moral? Why did he make us if we admit we deserve to die? Life is a precious thing! How does anyone deserve to die? I would like to know how my opponent justifies god as moral and benevolent.

" The only thing that can justify your death is the fire of Hell which is the end of sinners if they reject God's offer of pardon for their sins based on the fact that He paid in full for them with His own blood in Jesus Christ."

One death of Jesus is not the same as torture for eternity.

Why did god create us, just so we can be justified with eternal torture? How is that moral? I would chose not to exist if I knew that existing meant 90-100 years of beautiful life, and then burn in hell because why? Because you exist.
Debate Round No. 1
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

Ok, since your questions are loaded with a lot of assumptive rhetoric, I will question your assumptions. Hitler and Ghandi are both gone from us, we cannot ask them how their existence if justied. You are asking me questions that it is impossible for me to answer when you ask where they are or how they could be somewhere other than where they are? How am I supposed to know? for all I know, they both are in heaven. For all i know, they both are in Hell. Maybe one is in Heaven and the other in Hell, or the other iHeaven and the one in Hell. I don't know. One thing I do know is that Ghandi coud not possible gain heaven by any amount of good works. If his good works outwaighed his bad works, why did he have to die like everybody else? It is not possible for your good works to outwaigh your bad works. Your bad works carry more weight, and they have set you apart from God and are pulling you down to Hell where your existence as a sinner is justified. Sin is what we die for, sin is what takes a person to Hell. If sin is not removed from our record, the fire of Hell justifies our continued existence as sinners. As far as I know, Ghandi and Hitler are both in Hell now with no way out because they were both sinners and both died trusting in their own works. But I could be wrong. Maybe they are both in heaven. That is not the subject of this debate. I do know there is only ons Saviour, and there is only one satisfactory payment for Ghandi's sins (and he had sins on his record the same as everybody else, not even Ghandi was perfect). The only Saviour is Jesus Christ. Ghandi's personal beliefs and good things he did are not his Saviour. The only thing that can fully satisfy God as payment for sin is the sinless blood of Jesus Christ which He shed in Ghandi's place. If Ghandi chose to trust in his own beliefs and his own actions however good they may have appeared, Ghandi was trusting in things that could never remove sin from His record and Ghandi's existence is justifed by the fire of Hell burning against him for his sin.

There is no need for me to provide references to show that religions are based on what a person does to gain paradise, eternal life, Heaven, Nirvana or the non-existence which is the hope of the atheist. You yourself have already pointed out the presumption that you can be justified by practicing a religion of good works. You illustrate this by your assumption that Ghandi's good works ourweighed his bad works so he earned a "don't burn in Hell" certificate. It is not possible to earn a "don't burn in Hell" certificate, much less a "God now owes you entrance into heaven for all the good things you have done" certificate. The only way your existence can be justfied outside of the fire of Hell is that your sins be completely paid for so you can be pardoned. The only payment God can accept as complete payment is the blood of the One who never deserved to die, but died on behalf of sinners who would believe on Him and receive Him as their Saviour. He is alive, He is God, He is a real person. He is not a religion. He is the Saviour through whom we come to know God personally. Knowing God is reality. Religion is trying to reach God or gain His approval, or things like that which give supposedly credit to your behaviour. It is more than presumptious to assume God will owe you or Ghandi any thing other than the fire of Hell. God cannot be benevolent to sin as sin is malevolent to God. Sin is against God, God is against sin. We are sinners who deserve to die and burn in Hell no matter how much we are like Ghandi or any other esteemed example of trying to be good while being imperfect. God cannot honor religion. God can only honor Himself. He will not honor you with your sin if you think you deserve His honor. Your sin has to be removed from you or you must bear it in the fire of Hell. If your exixtence outside of Hell is not justifed by the blood God gave on the cross when He took your death on Himself before rising from the grave free of sin's penalty, then your existence is justified by the fire of Hell chained to sin's penalty.

You ask "why did God create us"? He created us because He is good. He gave us life because He is good. He created us and all things for His own pleasure and His own purpose, to glorify Himself. If you die in your sins, God is glorifed in justifying your eternal existence by leaving you where sin belongs, in the fire of Hell. If you A) admit you deserve to die and burn in Hell for your sin, B) Believe God to your sins on Himself and paid in full with His holy blood before He rose from the grave to be the justifier of all who believe on Him , and C) Call on God in the name of Jesus Christ who took your death so that you can have His eternal life to save you from Hell, your existence will be justified by the blood of Jesus Christ which paid for you sins and you will have eternal life adn heaven will be your home.
Commondebator

Con

You are saying it possible for Gandhi to be burning in hell? Then whats the point of heaven? You can be a mass murderer, yet still make your way to heaven! How is that is that moral, from a benevolent god? You have to have a certain religious belief to have a way to heaven? Whats the point of heaven, when all you need to do is be lustful, sin, murder, insult, but believe in a certain religion, and attend to a certain church to go to heaven?

"Heaven, Nirvana or the non-existence which is the hope of the atheist."

The definition of an atheist is: "a disbelief in the existence of deity"
Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com...

How exactly do you know that heaven or nirvana is the hope of an atheist? I highly suspect that you are giving false claims for atheism with no back up evidence.

"The only payment God can accept as complete payment is the blood of the One who never deserved to die, but died on behalf of sinners who would believe on Him and receive Him as their Saviour"

Historically, Jesus died for considering to be the "king of jews". Also, one death is not the same as an eternity in hell, being tortured a thousand painful deaths.
Source: http://www.gospel-mysteries.net...

"He is not a religion"

Definition of religion: the belief in a god or in a group of gods
Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com...

No, god is not a religion. But people who follow or believe in god, means they are religious. You, as I suspect are a follower of Christ. You are part of a organized belief structure called a religion, and the name of your religion is Christianity.

"We are sinners who deserve to die and burn in Hell no matter how much we are like Ghandi or any other esteemed example of trying to be good while being imperfect"

If god loved us so much, why did he create us imperfect? He thought that he was going to create brilliant thinking beings, that are imperfect, and just because of that sole reason, he would send us to hell? Because we are imperfect and we exist, means we deserve in hell? Sounds like god can't be called benevolent anymore.

"Ghandi's good works outweighed his bad works so he earned a 'don't burn in Hell' certificate"

So, you are saying, even good people deserve to burn in hell. You can proof your worthy of heaven by killing everyone surrounding you, yet believing in Christ. I find that ridiculously immoral from an all moral god.

"He created us because He is good. He gave us life because He is good."

You are saying he gave us life, so we can burn in hell? He brought us life, and so we can experience beauty for 90-100 years, then burn in hell, solely because we are imperfect, and we exist?

Thank you for accepting my request to debate with you pro. Forgive me, I did not write that in my previous round. Hopefully, we will have a respectful and enjoyable debate.
Debate Round No. 2
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

I do appreciate that you are asking questions and making statements without insulting me. Few people who do not want to admit that they deserve to die now can do that. Most of them will say I am being hateful or ignorant or dumb or whatever. Most people for some reason are incapable of arguing with me on this site without trying to degrade and insult me. I can't disagree with anything the Bible holds true. The Bible does specifically adress certain types of antagonistic behaviour and does call people names according to their behaviour. Since you are showing me a measure of respect, I will not point out the names in the Bible that would apply to you based on the things you have stated in your arguments. For this debate, the only name I have for you is the same name that applies to me, Ghandi, Hitler, Muhammed, Mother Tersea, Bhudda, and every other person who has ever breathed God's air (atheist's too, it's still God's air if they admit it or not): sinner.

All of your questions and objections have been answered. If I say more, I'll be repeating myself. For this round, I will only ask you to look more carefully at the questions and statements you are making and the answers I gave. You are repeating your questions and statement. I don't want to repeat my answers. If you didn't accept them the first time, yoiu will not accept them by me repeating them now. Scroll back and look. All of your questions and statements were answered. You are not accepting the answers. You can understand God if you try. All you are doing is trying to justify your existence outside of the fire of Hell. It's not possible to justify your existence outside of the fire of Hell if you are not justified by God Himself in the death, burial, and resurrection of God the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ our Messiah and our King.

Commondebator

Con

"and every other person who has ever breathed God's air (atheist's too, it's still God's air if they admit it or not): sinner."

If you claim to say that every person in this world that has ever lived, is a sinner, then that means that Jesus is a sinner too. If Jesus is very special because he died for our sins (although, that can be debatable based on historical records), then what about other people who died for us? Why aren't they treated like Jesus? Based on your statements, everyone is a sinner. Then that means Jesus is a sinner too. In fact, Jesus was also a drunkard.(Matthew 11:19). If Jesus is no different than us, and he died for us (making people worship him), then what about the millions of soldiers, and historical figures such as Gandhi? They are also sinners like Jesus, but they also died for the sake of their people. I am assuming that you believe Jesus didn't get sent to hell. Then what makes others so different than Jesus?

My opponent takes up the rest of the round telling me to carefully read he's statements once again. When in fact my questions are being based on what my opponent said.

P: "Admit that you deserve to die now and burn in Hell forever as a sinner "
C: "What? How does anyone deserve to die? God wants you to die and burn in hell forever? How is god moral? Why did he make us if we admit we deserve to die?"

P: " Because God caused them to come into existence He has no right to punish them for being the imperfect creatures they were born as"
C: "If god loved us so much, why did he create us imperfect? He thought that he was going to create brilliant thinking beings, that are imperfect, and just because of that sole reason, he would send us to hell? Because we are imperfect and we exist, means we deserve in hell? Sounds like god can't be called benevolent anymore."

As you can see, my questions are being based off your responses. I would highly appreciate if you can answer them, if it is not enough trouble.

Thank you pro.
Debate Round No. 3
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

Ok, basically you are saying that Jesus is not God so it is not possible for His blood to justify you. If His blood does not justify your existence, the only other justifcation for the existence of sinners is the fire of Hell. God cannot have sin in His presence. You have broken God's law at some point, we all have. Since you insist Jesus was a sinner, then for you there is no way for your sins to be paid for outiside of the fire of Hell. If your living is justifed by your existence, does that mean that your death in unjust? Your living is not justified by your existence or you would have no death. Because you are not justified to live, all you will have is death and the only way your existence can be justified when your time is over in this world is for you to exist in Hell forever because you are a siinner turned againt God. All devils and people who have turned againt God will be turned away from God forever in the fire of Hell He remains glorified in creating you, but you will never appreciate His glory if you are burning in Hell. Hell is your homw if you are not justified to live forever.

You are taking Bible passages out of context and twisting meanings. Those things are not worth answering. You are saying He was a sinner. All that is needed to say is that if your living is not justified by God Himself in that He gave His sinless blood in the Son of God as payment in full for your sin so that you can be justifed in His resurrection for eternal life;, your living cannot be justifed at all and only the fire of Hell can justify your continuing existence as a breaker of God's law. You have lost your freedom because you have broken God's law. You have lost your life because you have broken God's law. If you reject the blood of God in Jesus Christ as your justification for living by His resurrection from the dead, not only your life will be lost but your soul will be lost in Hell where all sinners will be confinied in the consuming fire of Hell so their sin can never again disrupt God's peace. If you end up stuck in Hell forever, the smoke of your torments there will rise forever as a testimony that God punishes sin. You must bear your responsiblity for breaking God's law if you reject what He did in substituting Himself to take your death, bureid, and rose from the dead free from sin to be the justifer of all who believe on Him.


God made a way for you to be saved from Hell. You can be justifed by the blood of Jesus Christ and have eternal life, but you will not be justified by Him if you keep saying He was not good enough, he was a sinner. You have no way to be justifed other than the fire of Hell as long as you take that stance against God. Saying it's not fair won't keep you out of the fire of Hell.
Commondebator

Con

"If His blood does not justify your existence, the only other justification for the existence of sinners is the fire of Hell"

Can I ask you why it takes Jesus' blood? God wants you to be saved, so why bring up Jesus? Jesus is no different than any other sinner in this world! Whats so special about Jesus, when there are countless other men who died for humanity.

I fail to see the idea why god would send us to hell, just because we exist in the first place. We are imperfect? So let me get this straight. God made us imperfect, and for that sole reason, he would send us to hell. We exist just so we can go to hell. But, for some reason you say god is good, because he doesn't want you to go to hell, because he brought up Jesus? Why bring up the idea of hell in the first place, when all you need to do is believe in a sinner who is no different from us!

"If your living is justified by your existence, does that mean that your death in unjust?"

No, your existence being justified by hell is unjust.

I would also like to know, where is your evidence that our existence is justified by hell. What is your true evidence of hell? If you say the Bible, then how do authenticate the Bible? How do you determine its reliability? I would like to hear my opponent's reply on that.

"our living cannot be justified at all and only the fire of Hell can justify your continuing existence as a breaker of God's law"

How is our existence justified by hell? I fail to see any viable reason for that. God created beings imperfectly so we can go to hell?

"God made a way for you to be saved from Hell. You can be justified by the blood of Jesus Christ and have eternal life, but you will not be justified by Him if you keep saying He was not good enough, he was a sinner."

No, god doesn't care about you. Judging by your statements, it looks like god is very selfish and immoral. He doesn't care how good about how good of a person you are. He just loves you enough because your sole existence is to burn in hell. All he wants you do is believe in Jesus (who is no different than anyone else), and he won't care about you killing, raping, insulting, or lying.

"Saying it's not fair won't keep you out of the fire of Hell."

I fail to see any evidence of hell, besides a overly biased book that has yet to be authenticated.

Thank you for your reply, Back to you pro.
Debate Round No. 4
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

As long as you say the things you are saying about Jesus, there is no way for you to be justified outside of the fire of Hell. It's simple logic. God created you. You have sinned against God. Your sin sets you apart from God. You are a sinner. What is He going to do with you? Your existence as a person who has rebelled agaisnt their Creator cannot be justifed except by the fire of Hell. Hell is jutice against you. God made a way for you to be saved from it. But you want to go on the way you are going. You are free to do that, for now. Your freedom as a sinner cannot be justifed, you will be imprisoned in the fire of Hell to satisfy God's justice against you.........if you don't repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be justified through faith in His sinless blood in His bodily resurrection for eternal life. Through His blood you can be justified to live forever. Without His payment for yorur sins, without Him, your existence cannot be justified outside of the fire of Hell. It's Justice. You want proof? That's a foolish thing to ask for.
Commondebator

Con

"As long as you say the things you are saying about Jesus, there is no way for you to be justified outside of the fire of Hell."

This is the exact same thing that is being questioned. You chose to use that in a debate, that is all about that statement being questioned?

"You have sinned against God. Your sin sets you apart from God. You are a sinner. What is He going to do with you? Your existence as a person who has rebelled against their Creator cannot be justified except by the fire of Hell.'

If my existence has rebelled against god, why did he create me? Just because my existence is Justified by hell? How is god "good" in any way?

"you will be imprisoned in the fire of Hell to satisfy God's justice against you"......if you don't repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be justified through faith in His sinless blood in His bodily resurrection for eternal life. "

Jesus is no different from anyone else. He was a mover and a motivational speaker, with many followers. He was executed for claiming to be the king of Jews.

How does my existence need any type of justification? I exist, so I exist. Whats the need of a higher power to justify it? You claim to say that the higher power created me, and that creation has rebelled against god, because he created me imperfect? Whats the logic in that?

"You want proof? That's a foolish thing to ask for."

My opponent choses to show me no proof, therefor he has none. When in fact, he choses to tell me how hell can really justify me, when that is the exact thing that is being questioned.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Uniscious 2 years ago
Uniscious
This is religion, not philosophy.
Posted by ATHOS 2 years ago
ATHOS
hey, Pro. If God loves me and doesn't want me to burn in hell, why did he even create hell?
Also, I hear many Christians say that it is not God's will that I go to hell. If that's true then I shouldn't have anything to worry about, right? I mean, what can usurp the will of an all powerful god?
Posted by GoOrDin 2 years ago
GoOrDin
God is glorified. He does not glorify himself.
God does not condemn people,
he leaves the door open during the night and says, "do not go outside. It is dark and you will be lost. There are beasts that prey, and you are too weak to fight against them. You will die outside, so stay in the house."
those who venture outside against his recommendations will weep, and God is no more to blame, then if he had asked you to go into the house when a storm approaches, and instead you rush off away from his Protection where he cares for his herd, to be lost int he strong gales of the wind where you cannot distinguish his stern words of advice from the badgering of demons who tell you, "this direction is surely the wrong one!"
Posted by GoOrDin 2 years ago
GoOrDin
God does whatever he wants, that doesn't make him any less perfect by his own standard.
And thus, get on the boat, because he doesn't care who's in the water.
God's opinion is perfectly satisfying to himself, and it is most pleasing to everyone, because that is the purpose for which he does all things he Does.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by SNP1 2 years ago
SNP1
LifeMeansGodIsGoodCommondebatorTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: When will Pro learn how to support his arguments? The only person with a coherent argument is Con.
Vote Placed by ATHOS 2 years ago
ATHOS
LifeMeansGodIsGoodCommondebatorTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Basically, all pro is saying through out the debate is: "if you don't believe what I believe you'll burn in hell." Pro claims that his/her understanding of christianity is logical, yet fails to show how a loving god and hell are logically consistent.