The Instigator
imabench
Pro (for)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
9spaceking
Con (against)
Winning
19 Points

Zaradi Toruney: Best Military Leaders Debate

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 6 votes the winner is...
9spaceking
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/16/2015 Category: Funny
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,512 times Debate No: 68462
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (3)
Votes (6)

 

imabench

Pro

This is a part of Zaradi's mega tournament, me and 9space will be debating the best generals/military leaders of history.

In each side, both debaters will post ONE person they believe is one of the best military minds in history, and give a brief or detailed description about them.... They can also offer some words of rebuttal against whoever the other side chooses, but I would like to stress that doing so is entirely optional.

First round acceptance only.
4 rounds and 8000 characters.
Vote for whoever you think made better selections.
9spaceking

Con

I accept this debate, and guarantee that I will not hardly never, stopping barely, not not do the opposite of not trolling, in this debate.
Debate Round No. 1
imabench

Pro

*reads acceptance statement*
*gets a headache*

Anyways: My pick for one of the best military leaders: Genghis Khan

(I borrowed this from one of my other debates similar to this, but I trimmed it to be a tad shorter)

http://www.marketroadfilms.com...

Genghis Khan is known as the first of the great Mongol warlords who kickstarted the creation of the largest continuous empire the world has ever seen.

http://upload.wikimedia.org...

Mongolia at the time of Genghis Khan had very little manpower to muster to go out conquering, yet Genghis Khan managed to take down CHINA despite this handicap. (China existed as three different countries at this point, Jin in the north, Xia in the west, Sung in the south.) Jin China was several times over more populated than Mongolia, and the size of the armies reflected this. Genghis Khan invaded with around 100,000 men, yet he still managed to: "smashed the Jin armies, each numbering in the hundreds of thousands"

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Genghis Khan defeated SEVERAL Jin armies, each of which was larger than his own, and not only did he win, he smashed them, going on to conquer all of Jin China. After taking Jin and Xia China (along with some space in between the mongol homelands and the Caspian Sea) Ghengis Khan then led his mongol horde into the Middle East, taking over Iran, Afghanistan, and everything north from there up to Russia.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

While the siege on China took about a decade, the conquest of the Middle East took only TWO YEARS... Genghis Khan's armies were outnumbered roughly 400,000-450,000 to 100,000-150,000, but he overcame this handicap by developing complex and adaptable battle strategies to every situation he faced. Genghis Khan also pioneered heavy use of intelligence-gathering to vividly dissect how strong and resistant that potential targets would pose to him.

"The Mongol intelligence network was formidable. The Mongols never invaded an opponent whose military and economic will and ability to resist had not been thoroughly and completely scouted. For instance, Subutai and Batu Khan spent a year scouting central Europe, before destroying the armies of Hungary and Poland in two separate battles, two days apart"

http://en.wikipedia.org...

The largest empire to EVER exist in human history was started by Genghis Khan, and it continued to grow long after he had died by his successors, who used his brilliant strategies to win countless other battles. Genghis Khan conquered territories several times larger and more populated than the Mongol homelands he came from, and did so despite being routinely and even horrendously out-manned, an ailment that can cripple even the best military generals. The Mongol empire would go on and expand into parts of Europe, all of China and Korea, and several other parts of the world. If you measured the greatness of military leaders purely by the amount of territory they conquered, than Genghis Khan is your undisputed champion as the best military leader

Between 1206 to 1227, Genghis Khan conquered nearly 12 million square miles of territory, more than any individual in history, and more than twice as much land as any other person in history

http://www.history.com...
http://www.history.com...\

Genghis Khan is undeniably one of the greatest, if not THE greatest, military leaders of history.
9spaceking

Con

Wowwwwwwww I was going to choose Genghis Khan, lol.
I'll choose Alexander the Great.

Firstly, he had the largest empire ratio to the known world of the time.

[http://en.wikipedia.org...]
Genghis Khan only had a larger empire because they explored more of the world at this time.

A website also has good information for why Alex is a far superior tactician than Genghis Khan:
"The Greeks call him “Μ^1;γας O44;λ^1;ξανδρος,” that is, “Alexander the Great,” and he truly remains so, because he fought a total of 17 major battles, and won every single one of them. He was severely outnumbered in most of them, but by his generalship his men never lost more than 16% of their army in any one battle. That 16% death rate occurred only once, at Issus, in 333 BC, at which battle Alexander lost 6500 to 7000 men out of 40,000. His enemy, Darius III of Persia, lost 20,000 to 30,000 dead.

At Gaugamela, two years after Issus, he lost only 2.5% of his army, or about 1,100 men dead out of 47,000. He defeated the Persians spectacularly and his men killed at least 40,000, and as many as 90,000. The Persian army was comprised of at least 100,000 men, and may have had as many as 1,000,000. Darius was finally able to use his entire army at once without terrain restrictions, since at Issus Alexander fought him in a fairly narrow mountain pass.

Alexander surveyed the Persian army the night before, and decided to shift his army to the Persian left. Darius could not force his entire army to displace because the logistics were impossible. He did not want to present Alexander with his left flank, so he lengthened his lines, covering more ground with the same men, thus thinning their lines considerably. This had the effect Alexander wanted: his breakthrough on the Persian left was easier to achieve, and with his extraordinarily well trained cavalry (the Companions), he flanked the Persians, nearly speared Darius himself, and caused the Persians to panic and flee.

This was his typical strategy on the field, and it required his own left flank to be unbelievably tough, since the enemy army charged full force into it and attempted to flank it. Unfortunately for his enemies, you simply cannot break a Greek phalanx in the front. It is designed to withstand such assaults, and Alexander’s primary captain, Parmenion, deserves a lot of the glory for maintaining the army’s formation throughout all Alexander’s battles. Horses are very intelligent animals and will not charge into a line of spear points, however vehemently they are made to run.

Darius solved this problem by blindfolding his horses and harnessing them to chariots with sword blades attached to the wheel hubs. These would cut men’s legs off at the shins. Alexander solved this problem by training his men to separate their phalanges to half their depth, allow the horses and chariots into a three-sided pocket, kneel with their shields to the ground, and then swarm onto the charioteers. The scythed wheels rattled harmlessly across the shields. Today this tactic is called 'Alexander’s Mousetrap.'"
[http://listverse.com...]

So basically, to sum it up:
-Alex did not lose a single battle
-Alex's army had much fewer soldiers than his enemies, unlike Genghis Khan, who was mostly not hugely outnumbered and had the soldiers enough to match the numbers of his enemies
-Alex had to rely on strategy to defeat his enemies, and even has a tactic named after him to this day. Genghis Khan has zero tactics named after him.
-Alex would have conquered the whole known world of the time, if it were not for his tired soldiers

Alexander did not ONLY have these battle achievements (my opponent seems to stress heavily on Genghis' campaigns and empire, but battling is not everything). You see, Alex spread culture as well. As Wikipedia's page put it, "Alexander's legacy includes the cultural diffusion his conquests engendered, such as Greco-Buddhism. He founded some twenty cities that bore his name, most notably Alexandria in Egypt. Alexander's settlement of Greek colonists and the resulting spread of Greek culture in the east resulted in a new Hellenistic civilization, aspects of which were still evident in the traditions of the Byzantine Empire in the mid-15th century and the presence of Greek speakers in central and far eastern Anatolia until the 1920s. Alexander became legendary as a classical hero in the mold of Achilles, and he features prominently in the history and myth of Greek and non-Greek cultures. He became the measure against which military leaders compared themselves, and military academies throughout the world still teach his tactics." Did Genghis spread his Mongol culture? Of course not!! All he cared about was taking over land to earn money, or teach the opposition to follow him by crushing them in his wake. People were scared, and Genghis was basically a different culture from them. People did not want Genghis' culture, and we all know Mongols don't really know how to take care of the government of the areas they ruled over. On the other hand, Alexander ably ruled over his areas and spread his culture, even having an ever-lasting impact with many future generals admiring him.

Again, Alexander is smarter than Genghis, and he should be. I already mentioned this, but I'll repeat this again: He needed real strategy and careful planning to defeat the numerous enemies (which I stress again, they OUTNUMBERED him in most of his battles). He thought out every battle carefully, explaining his never-losing streak. He learned from the famous philosopher Aristotle himself! Genghis did not, could not learn from another philosopher to increase his military skills or spread his culture.

To further strengthen this argument, here's an article about the main reason why the Mongols seemed invincible and undefeatable:
"
The Mongols also had scientists and engineers from the most developed countries in world with them. Chinese administrators {book keepers} also were drafted into the armies. So that the huge armies could operate like a smooth running machine. Mongol armies could travel up to 100 miles a day. Besides being great nomads and {almost} invincible on the battlefield, the Mongols had Chinese and Arab siege engines and the engineers to operate them, this helped a lot with the sacking of heavily fortified cities and forts.

...in 1223, the Bulgars defeated the Mongols and took many prisoners of war. After the battle, negotiating with Genghis Khan, Bulgars agree to exchange the captured Mongols - a sheep for a soldier. To be more precise it was the Volga Bulgars who succeeded in stopping Genghis Khan. {He died shortly after that in China.} The Bulgar king Gabdula Chelbir defeated Ghengis Khan in 1223 nearby Samarskaya Luka, the first defeat of the Mongols ever. The success of the Bulgars may appear surprising at first but if you think about it, it's not. Conquering Austria, Hungary, Poland, Russia, China, The Caucasus, The Middle East, Arabia, India, Korea, etc, the Mongols fought non nomadic people. As the Huns showed before, that's not exactly a fair fight. Nomad war technology is far superior to that of sedentary people. And while Volga Bulgaria may have appeared to the Mongols, at first as just another small country to be conquered, it should have dawned on them at some point during the battle when they were getting their arse kicked that appearances can be deceiving. "

From this passage we can draw three things:
-Mongols are defeated; while Alex is not
-Genghis Khan relied on his technology to defeat non-nomads, it was a fair fight against sedentary people, and he lost against these Bulgars
And finally,
-Genghis Khan was not smart enough to figure out that one, the Bulgars had superior technology and were actually capable of beating the Mongols, or two, figure out a strategy plan to defeat the Bulgars or even maybe a different method of retreating and attack later.

Debate Round No. 2
imabench

Pro

I know this is mega random but im going to go ahead and concede this debate to 9space on account of I have homework up the a** right now, LSATs coming soon, LSAT prep/tutoring coming sooner than that, and a complete absence of willpower to give this debate the effort it deserves.

vote con, gotta go
9spaceking

Con

What a shame. Looks like Mongols are the exception to EVERYTHING, even the best military leaders!!
Vote me.
Debate Round No. 3
imabench

Pro

Seriously? I concede the debate and you try to run up the score anyways?
9spaceking

Con

*9spaceking walks across a snowy mountain top as piano music begins to play

The debate on DDO ends tonight
Not an argument to be seen
Imabench started this debate
but he did not really have time

I'm winning, wipin' him off the matt
Had to made this parody cuz' this song was in my head.
Well here I go, for now, it may not be good.

Put some words here, put some words there!
I don't know how to make my chorus rhyme,
try to hide it and not let anyone knowwwwww
Well know it's obvioussssss

imabench loses, ima loses,
He didn't have enough timeeeeeee
imabench lost, ima lost,
The time-managing debater is goneeeee
Here I ammmmmmm
In this won debateeeee
Judges please vote meeeeeeeee
A free win never bothered me anyway

It's interesting how this debate
Is the first one he quit
And such a low-caliber debater as me
He should've at least tried something!

But something came up,
Something important I bet,
That forced him to give up,
I can understand, perfectly, you seeeeee............!
imabench loses, ima loses,
He didn't have enough timeeeeeee
imabench lost, ima lost,
The time-managing debater is goneeeee
Here I ammmmmmm
In this won debateeeee
Judges please vote meeeeeeeee

*a massive castle grows out of the ground
My arguments grow up like a skyscraper into the skyyyy
demolishing his rather empty field, crushin' em like fireflieeees
His red round is like a free gift to meeeeeeee
I've won this debate for sure, because I am too awesome!!!!
imabench loses, ima loses,
He didn't have enough timeeeeeee
imabench lost, ima lost,
The time-managing debater is goneeeee

Here I ammmmmmm
In this won debateeeee
Judges please vote meeeeeeeee
A free win never bothered me anyway
Debate Round No. 4
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
whoops. He had no red round. I should have red (GET IT?) it over before trying to Freeze Imabench (if you know what I mean)
Posted by carriead20 2 years ago
carriead20
*applauds* Beautiful first arguments!
Posted by BLAHthedebator 2 years ago
BLAHthedebator
I love it when I read multiple mini-essays on these debates
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by bladerunner060 2 years ago
bladerunner060
imabench9spacekingTied
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Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: Arguments, obviously, for the concession. But I do think that honorable concessions (as opposed to simply running out the clock with forfeits) should be rewarded, so conduct to Pro. As always, happy to clarify this RFD.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 2 years ago
Ragnar
imabench9spacekingTied
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Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: Concession. Hopefully there can be a rematch.
Vote Placed by Blade-of-Truth 2 years ago
Blade-of-Truth
imabench9spacekingTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro conceded the debate in R3, thus Con wins.
Vote Placed by Zaradi 2 years ago
Zaradi
imabench9spacekingTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Whelp that was fast
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
imabench9spacekingTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Concession
Vote Placed by bsh1 2 years ago
bsh1
imabench9spacekingTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro conceded.