The Instigator
Sundial
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
donald.keller
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points

Zimmerman acted in self defense

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
donald.keller
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/18/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 932 times Debate No: 35732
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (1)

 

Sundial

Con

George Zimmerman did not act in self defense as his lawyer claimed. He got away with murder. The jury should have found him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt for killing an unarmed teenager who was racially profiled as being a bad black kid in the neighborhood. Of course there were crimes in the neighborhood prior
to the Zimmerman/ Martin incident so that means he was racially profiling Trayvon as being one of the bad black teenagers in the neighborhood known for committing crimes and decided to take the law into his own hands after the dispatcher told him to leave the teenager alone.
The Justice system is broken for blacks in America since the civil rights movement.Zimmerman should have also used his fist to confront the teenager instead of using his gun to kill him.If Trayvon had a gun and had threathen Zimmerman that would have been another case but Trayvon was unarmed.
sundial
donald.keller

Pro

I accept Con's challenge. Because the Con used his first Round to display an argument, I will use mine to Cross Examine his. I will display a case in Round 2, once the Con has had a chance to display a real case of his own.

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"He got away with murder. The jury should have found him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt for killing an unarmed teenager who was racially profiled as being a bad black kid in the neighborhood."

The Jury can not find a man guilty beyond a reasonable doubt if there was in fact a Reasonably doubt. The Prosecution did a bad job and could not refute the evidence that backed up Zimmerman's case.

A world where one can be convicted even with reasonable doubt simply to meet the demands of a mob would be a terrible world indeed.

To prove that Zimmerman got away with murder, the Con must first prove he did not act in self-defense. The con must also prove that Zimmerman racially profiled the teenager. To do this, he must read the 911 call Transcript.

"Of course there were crimes in the neighborhood prior to the Zimmerman/ Martin incident so that means he was racially profiling Trayvon as being one of the bad black teenagers in the neighborhood known for committing crimes and decided to take the law into his own hands after the dispatcher told him to leave the teenager alone."

The Con fails to properly understand the definition of Racial Profiling... To suspect a black person for being black is racial profiling... To suspect someone because persons matching his description have been committing crimes is not racial profiling. According to the 911 Transcript, race wasn't involved until the Police Dispatcher asked for a race.

You know why they ask for someone's race? Because once you know the person is black, you remove 87.7% of the population, and help narrow it down. It's not racial profiling. It's profiling based off a description that the person met.

The Con must understand the difference between breaking the law and doing something inadvisable.

"The Justice system is broken for blacks in America since the civil rights movement."

It wasn't broken when it handled OJ Simpson's case when he murdered a white woman... It went with the black man. Do you know why they didn't lock OJ Simpson away for murder? Because there was a reasonable doubt, either that, or it's broken in favor of Black people. Given how the Government is still trying to get Zimmerman on other charges just so they can put him away, I'd say your argument is flawed and broken.

Saying the Justice System is broken JUST because you didn't win the case is simply pointing fingers. It's unwarranted. And worst of all... It's immature. That's all it will be unless you can gather evidence to back your accusation.

The fact that the system didn't throw Zimmerman away does not mean it failed, it means it worked... It resisted the NAACP and the mobs, and let free a man they couldn't gather enough evidence against...

a) http://www.debate.org...

"Zimmerman should have also used his fist to confront the teenager instead of using his gun to kill him. If Trayvon had a gun and had threaten Zimmerman that would have been another case but Trayvon was unarmed."

Trayvon used his fists to confront Zimmerman when Zimmerman asked a simple question, so the first part of this argument is irrelevant. Trayvon reached for Zimmerman's gun, so the second half of your argument is irrelevant. This is because Zimmerman did not react with shooting until Trayvon had attempted to obtain a gun (Zimmerman's gun.)

You do not need to be threatened with a gun to be entitled self-defense. Zimmerman didn't even use the gun until Trayvon started reaching for it.

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I want the Con to answered 3 questions...

1 - Does Zimmerman's past reflect that of a man who would "racial profile" someone for being black? (here is a start, look up Sherman Ware)

2 - What wounds did Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman obtain (PRIOR to the Gunshot.)

3 - What is the Resolution of this debate?

I rest my argument for now.
Debate Round No. 1
Sundial

Con

Sundial forfeited this round.
donald.keller

Pro

Arguments and Questions extended.
Debate Round No. 2
Sundial

Con

The fact that George Zimmerman called non-emergency police dispatcher alone presents different
avenues for interpretation. Zimmerman did not act in self defense as he claimed by using Stand Your Ground why, because for the fact Tyayvon Martin was unarmed and was probably afraid that Zimmerman was going to use his gun to kill him of which he did. Zimmerman was wrong for all and should have been found guilty on second degree murder. Another fact, he should not have followed
Martin or made suspicions, stereotyping and racial profiling Martin because Martin happened to be in Twin Lakes neighborhood complex walking around not causing trouble and mistook Martin as one of the black males in the neighborhood known to cause burglaries and other crimes. By Zimmerman following Martin caused the fatal confrontation. The Pro must understand that you can
still be Hispanic or any other race and still be racist. Zimmerman having black friends and black relatives does not excuse him from the murder .We know Zimmerman is half white and half Hispanic .
The Pro mentioned the NAACP, the NAACP is always fighting for minorities civil rights whether poor or rich if Zimmerman was in Martin shoes the NAACP was going to seek justice for him also.
A civil suit should be brought against Zimmerman by Martin's parents for causing physical harm and emotional damages. Any book deal Zimmerman gets half of the proceeds should go to Martin's parents.
The Pro must understand also that O.J. Simpson murder case is quite different from George Zimmerman's case .O.J. Simpson was accused of killing his ex-wife and her friend of which lab work were tampered with and other court evidence found O.J. Simpson innocent of the crime and not guilty. We know the gloves found at the crime scene did not fit O.J. Simpson's hands and those famous words from his lawyer Johnnie Cochran if it doesn't fit you must acquit.
The legal system in America is broken especially for blacks and in this case for Trayvon Martin and his parents. O.J .Simpson is rich and famous and could afford high profile lawyers to represent him unlike Trayvon Martin parents who are poor blacks. If O.J. Simpson was
poor he be on death row now for killing his ex-wife and her friends who were both whites .Zimmerman also has money.
donald.keller

Pro

I wouldn't normally post new sources on the last round, but since the Con waited until the last round to post, I may have little choice. I'll keep the new information and new sources down as much as can, but if the Con's argument requires it, I'll have to use them

"Zimmerman did not act in self defense as he claimed by using Stand Your Ground why, because for the fact Trayvon Martin was unarmed and was probably afraid that Zimmerman was going to use his gun to kill him of which he did."


Being unarmed doesn't mean you're not dangerous, and bares little relevance to the case of Self Defense. Fists can be deadly weapons. The Bruises on Zimmerman's face show us he was in danger. He would be fatally injured or dead if he did not react.

Statistics even show that Fists and other body parts are responsible for the third highest body count in the US (Leaving the generalized Other Weapons out.(a))

http://www.fbi.gov...

Not having a gun does not mean you aren't assaulting the other person, and it does not mean the other person can't defend himself.

"Another fact, he should not have followed Martin or made suspicions, stereotyping and racial profiling Martin because Martin happened to be in Twin Lakes neighborhood complex walking around not causing trouble and mistook Martin as one of the black males in the neighborhood known to cause burglaries and other crimes."

Labeling that a 'fact' would be jumping to conclusions over an accusation.

Maybe he shouldn't have followed Martin, but it was not illegal to do so. Zimmerman didn't stereotype Martin, or Profile him. If you actually read the transcript, race and appearance didn't come in until the Dispatcher asked for it. Zimmerman was concerned because a guy was walking around looking drunk or high, and staring at the houses.

While not something you call 911 over, it was most certainly not because Martin was Black. Zimmerman didn't even know what he was until long afterwards when the teenager started walking up to Zimmerman's car.

The Con makes accusations not supported by the 911 Call. Nothing says Zimmerman profiled anyone. This is a blatant media/bias-fueled accusation with no ground.

Zimmerman likely didn't mistake him as one of the black kids because he didn't know for sure if Martin was even black. There is also a difference between mistaking someone as one of the bad kids, and simply keeping an eye on them because they could be one of them.

"By Zimmerman following Martin caused the fatal confrontation."

According to the call Trayvon made to Witness 8, it'd appears Trayvon was just as responsible for the confrontation. He was even heard calling Zimmerman a "Crazy a$$ cracker." Trayvon so far fits your accusations against Zimmerman better than Zimmerman does.

"The Pro must understand that you can still be Hispanic or any other race and still be racist. Zimmerman having black friends and black relatives does not excuse him from the murder .We know Zimmerman is half white and half Hispanic."

The Con must understand that I still have more backing the accusation that Zimmerman is not racist, than what the Con has.

Zimmerman does have a black friend, which pushes the Con accusations back a little. That very same friend admitted that Zimmerman is not racist. The community Zimmerman lived in had a large Black Community that made up 20% of the Community, proportionately twice the National Average. They still agree that Zimmerman was not racist. In fact, not one of them thought he was.

http://www.miamiherald.com...
http://www.census.gov...

It appears the only people who think Zimmerman is racist are the people who do not know, and have never met him.

"The Pro mentioned the NAACP, the NAACP is always fighting for minorities civil rights whether poor or rich if Zimmerman was in Martin shoes the NAACP was going to seek justice for him also."

The Con must research Sherman Wares. I'll post him a link.
http://dailycaller.com...

"The Pro must understand also that O.J. Simpson murder case is quite different from George Zimmerman's case .O.J. Simpson was accused of killing his ex-wife and her friend of which lab work were tampered with and other court evidence found O.J. Simpson innocent of the crime and not guilty.........."

I posted the OJ Simpson case to explain how the Judicial System does in fact work for all people, not just White people. I was listing it as an example of how we know the System is not racist or Broken.

Even with the mobs, the Judge let OJ free, you know why? Because they could not convict him. Same here. It's a sign that the System works as it should, and that it works to Blacks too.

The Con as literally supported my claim. Thank you Con.

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The Con has not proven that Zimmerman acted outside Self-Defense. He repeated himself and combated my arguments by rewording and repeating his. He even supported my claim that the System is not broken, and in so doing, as refuted his largest claim.

I conclude the Debate, vote Pro.
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by donald.keller 3 years ago
donald.keller
Just 2 lol. there was going to be three. He kept writing his reply as a new challenge.
Posted by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
How many debates on this one subject, do the two of you have active right now?
Posted by donald.keller 3 years ago
donald.keller
I forgot to mention, The Con also did not answer my questions.
Posted by donald.keller 3 years ago
donald.keller
See... I like this one now. I also like your name... Welcome to DDO
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by InquireTruth 3 years ago
InquireTruth
Sundialdonald.kellerTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Not only was Donald.Keller's case more convincing, but he was more readable, less sloppy and conspicuously missing any forfeits. It's a shame DK did not get a more formidable opponent.