The Instigator
KnoxOpz92
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
firemrshallbr
Con (against)
Winning
13 Points

Zimmerman is guilty

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
firemrshallbr
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/11/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,108 times Debate No: 35485
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (10)
Votes (3)

 

KnoxOpz92

Pro

Why would someone who assaulted a cop and an ex fiance be put on neighborhood watch??? Idk how long he's been living there but he knew the area well enough to get police there without having to get out of his car to get an address...we all know he wasn't in fear of his life..I'm not choosing side nor am I racist but we all know what happen that night and zimmerman needs to be behind bars..there's know reason treyvon Martin should not be at home right NOW with his family
firemrshallbr

Con

According to Florida statues, a person is guilty of 2nd degree murder when they unlawfully kill another human being evincing a depraved mind. Where, has anyone, proven beyond a reasonable doubt that George Zimmerman was in this mental state. Look at the facts of the case.

The neighborhood, The Retreat at Twin Lakes, had experienced an increase in crime over the previous six months. The captain of the neighborhood watch was patrolling the area when he notices a strange person walking between houses. He calls the non-emergency number for the Sanford Police Department to inform them of this suspicious person walking between houses. Then, the watch captain exits his vehicle to follow the person. He is then informed by the police dispatcher that he does not need to follow the suspect. After this point, no one knows exactly what happened. Did Zimmerman continue to follow Martin? Was Zimmerman confronted by Martin as he returned to his car?

What we do know is that an altercation ensued where Zimmerman was taken to the ground, his head hitting the concrete sidewalk while Martin jumped on top of him and continued to strike at his face, breaking his nose. During this struggle, Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest, killing the teenager.

To your statement, "we all know he wasn"t in fear of his life", that is completely and totally unintellectual. The man had a person on top of him, throwing strikes to his face and hitting his head on the concrete sidewalk. In the heat of the moment, one could see why a person in that situation, would possibly be in fear of his life. I would like to know how you would react should someone punch you in the face (breaking your nose), jump on top of you and attempt to hit your head on a concrete sidewalk multiple times. By stating "we all know" your argument loses a lot of validity.

You also start your point by bringing up Zimmerman"s past. What I find interesting is that you do not mention any of Martin"s past. You neglect to mention that Mr. Martin was suspended from school for fighting. You neglect to mention that Martin had THC in his system the night he died. You neglect to mention that he has photographs of guns on his telephone. You neglect to mention that his brother (not sure about the relation) texted Martin, asking when he was going to teach him to fight. Zimmerman has his faults, but to have a valid and educated argument, you should take the time to layout the prior history of both parties, instead of attempting to skew it in one direction.

George Zimmerman, based on the evidence provided at the trial, is not guilty of 2nd degree murder.
Debate Round No. 1
KnoxOpz92

Pro

These f'ing punks they always get away..he was angry about the past break ins and he was gonna make sure this one didn't get away. who's to say zimmerman wasn't high on crack but of course he didn't have to give blood..

After he was told not to follow him I believe his excuse was I was going to get an address so he didn't get back in his car and he didn't need the address because he could navigate the police there without it..

it's hard to believe a grown man who was taking grappling lessons and working out on a regular basis who was in fair shape and weighed 50 pounds more was in fear of his life and unable to defend himself without using deadly force...if I was following a teenager that was minding there own business on there way home and an altercation ensued and I was being attacked I simply would have over powered him got on top and held them down..I definitely would not have shot especially when i started following him remind you I have my concealed carry permit.

For martins history..what teenager doesn't get into fights and he had picture of a gun on his phone not on his person and the the the thc wasn't enough to effect his state of mind said the expert.

Again why is someone who hits females and assaults cops put in a position to help protect the neighbor
firemrshallbr

Con

This morning, while driving into work, some idiot in a Mitsubishi Montero about ran me off the road. My response was to hit my horn and state something along the lines of "These f"ing idiots have no idea how to drive!". That statement does not show ill intent on my part. Neither does George Zimmerman"s statement about the "f"ing punks" always get away. If we begin to convict people based on words, I need to apply for asylum to Venezuela .

You mentioned that he assaulted a police officer, which he did. But, in reviewing the case, you see that he was most likely intoxicated and suffering from a case of liquid courage when he attempted to defend his friend. By no means am I defending that assault of a police officer, but I do believe in understanding all the circumstances surrounding the issue. This case does not show a predisposition to violence. Instead, it shows a predisposition to low alcohol tolerance.

Yes, he was told not to follow, and even through your own statement, you show he was returning to his vehicle. He stated he was getting out to find a street address could be considered a valid point. I know plenty of people who would need a GPS to get to and from a grocery store in their neighborhood. Just because you live in neighborhood does not mean you know every street and every building number.

You mention that he was taking grappling lessons. Did you miss the testimony from his own trainer, that while he had lost weight, he almost no fighting ability. Having served in military, I could introduce you to a large group of men, who while small in stature, could easily take down someone 50 pounds bigger. You state that if it were to happen to you, you would simply overpower the smaller person. To that, I say that how you say you react and how you would actually react are two totally separate things. You or I were not there. We did not get hit and knocked down. We did not have someone jump on top and begin to hit our heads into a concrete sidewalk. For either of us to say that we know exactly how we would have reacted would be foolish. Once your adrenaline kicks in, who truly have no idea how you would react, unless you have trained for years in countless different situations so you know exactly how to react.

But, to the point of your debate, Zimmerman was not in depraved mind during this incident. Because of that, he does not meet the most minimal parts of the statue to be convicted of 2nd degree murder.
Debate Round No. 2
KnoxOpz92

Pro

If you had almost been ran off the road several times in the past and if you had took that's persons life it would show I'll intent. We know that twin lakes had past break ins and this didn't sit well with zimmerman, when he saw treyvon maybe he thought now I can finally do something about it..that shows possible ill intent.

He could have had alcohol in his system when he assaulted the cop as well as when he took treyvons life but we'll never know.

There are only so many streets in that neighborhood which is all he needed to know and he could have said I'm in this color truck.
Another thing is if he had waited on the police like he was supposed to what were they gonna do go looking for him in the dark.its not like he caught him halfway through someone's window..treyvon belonged in that neighborhood although he technically the yard he crossed was private property it doesn't mean he should have been followed.

No I didn't miss any part of the case it's on right now..almost no fighting ability sounds like a joke to me but that's just me...I am currently serving in the military and I understand weight difference isn't everything but its more the age 17..yes I believe I would have easily controlled a 17 year old and I would love to go up against any 17 year old I just can't see myself being over power but again that's just me...

If I were treyvon I wouldn't have led a suspicious man with a pistol straight to my house where my brother was either..treyvon thought he was in danger and was defending himself

If second degree isn't awarded he need to spend a very long time in jail
firemrshallbr

Con

By your last statement, I noticed you are playing from the prosecution"s handbook. Since there is not enough evidence to warrant a 2nd degree murder charge, the state added on the possibility of a lesser charge of manslaughter. This is, in my opinion, a horrible flaw within our justice system. But, that can be another topic for another day. For this debate, you argued in support of Zimmerman being guilty of 2nd degree murder. Based on the evidence provided by the state of Florida, Zimmerman should be found not guilty.

There has been no proof, by evidence or statements prior to or after the incident, which show Zimmerman had ill intent. Through your own statement, you said "possible ill intent". Is it right to convict someone on a possibility? You can argue that his statements on the phone show the ill intent, but where did he say he was going to stop this? Where did he say he was going to teach this person a lesson? Where did he say I am going confront this person? He didn"t say any of those things. Instead, speaking out of frustration and prior experience, he says the "f"ing punks always get away". It was a poor choice of words, but not enough to send a man to jail for possibly the rest of his life.

The main point is that no one knows how George Zimmerman felt at that the time of the incident. He may have been a nerdy kid who never got into a fight and was scared to the point that he was in fear of his life. Based on the prosecution"s key witness, it was Martin, not Zimmerman, who initiated the confrontation. Based on the prosecution"s own closing arguments, Martin was on top of Zimmerman. I think that if Zimmerman truly believed that he was in imminent danger, then it was self defense. None of the evidence or testimony from the prosecution has shown me different.
Debate Round No. 3
KnoxOpz92

Pro

To be honest I'm tired of this trial and done with this debate

George had an address directly In front of him yet he continues to pursue treyvon and he says in an interview I started walking toward treyvon he's the initial aggressor and he didn't identify himself or anything close to it therefore treyvon was in fear of his life and acted upon those feeling but he did it the right way like a real man used his hands not a pistol

With that being said it is his fault treys not here and he needs to be locked away
ILL intent was there for me but I guess it's up to the jury but regardless he needs to be in jail and I can't wait for the verdict
firemrshallbr

Con

You state that Zimmerman had an address directly in front of him. Based on the video walkthrough, the address is clear as day. But, as the defense pointed out, no one knows if the lights were on the evening of the incident. But, beyond nit-picking the details, the case lies at the feet of the prosecution to prove that Zimmerman acted with hatred and ill will and depraved heart. Based on the evidence, and only the evidence, they failed on this point. No one can speak to what Zimmerman experienced or how he felt during the incident. Because of this, Zimmerman is not guilty of 2nd degree murder.
Debate Round No. 4
KnoxOpz92

Pro

2nd degree comes down to the jury's opinion but either way he could have got an address from his truck..and if he was afraid when treyvon was "circling his truck" he should have never got out..but it's all about opinions as far as 2nd degree but manslaughter still hold 10 to 30 so we will see..nice debating with you
firemrshallbr

Con

Zimmerman's fate now rests in the hands of the jury. No matter what we debated, in the end, it is up to those six women to decide whether Zimmerman acted out of hatred or in self defense.

I have enjoyed debating this issue with you. Look forward to doing it again.
Debate Round No. 5
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by donald.keller 3 years ago
donald.keller
It should be noted that Zimmerman was not racist. All of his neighbors back this up.

"None of the neighbors interviewed by the FBI said they had ever heard Zimmerman make a disparaging remark about racial or ethnic minorities. They described him as helpful and friendly. One neighbor, a man born in Dubai, said he is "110 percent sure" it is Zimmerman on the 911 tape" MIKE SCHNEIDER, Associated Press wrote.
Posted by GWL-CPA 3 years ago
GWL-CPA
The contention that Zimmerman should not have been allowed to do neighborhood watches because of past actions is unfounded.

The charge against Zimmerman in 2005 for "resisting officer with violence" and batter of law enforcement officer" were waived. Contemporaneous accounts indicate that Zimmerman shoved an officer who was questioning a friend for alleged underage drinking in an Orange Country Bar. The mere touching of the officer constituted battery. So this charge was overblown by the press, especially since it was dismissed.

Also in 2005, Zimmerman's ex-fiancee filed a civil motion (not a criminal motion)for a restraining order alleging domestic violence. Zimmerman counterfiled for a restraining order again his ex-fiancee. Both motions were granted. So, I don't know what that proves. There apparently was no proof of actual physical violence by Zimmerman or his ex-fiancee, or criminal charges would have been involved.

They both hated each other and wanted a civil court order banning the other from contact.

In December 2006, Zimmerman got a speeding ticket that was dismissed when the officer did not show up in court.

I don't think any of the above that happened over 7 or 8 years ago would disqualify him from doing neighborhood watches.
Posted by KnoxOpz92 3 years ago
KnoxOpz92
Then don't
Posted by wrichcirw 3 years ago
wrichcirw
I'm not going to vote for a debate like this without some sources.
Posted by KnoxOpz92 3 years ago
KnoxOpz92
Great closing argument going on right now
Posted by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
If you want to re-debate this with another opponent, please let me know. I did a minimal amount of research, and side with the police. I'm pretty sure the media hype is just because an ugly guy was let off after killing a cute kid (I'd still fire him from neighborhood watch).
Posted by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
If no one has taken this by tomorrow, I probably will. I just have to research to case a little.
Posted by YYW 3 years ago
YYW
It would be much better to debate "It is just for gang members to impose street justice upon George Zimmerman." That is a far sexier topic.
Posted by KnoxOpz92 3 years ago
KnoxOpz92
2nd degree
Posted by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
Please define the level of guilt you wish to prove.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Rational_Thinker9119 3 years ago
Rational_Thinker9119
KnoxOpz92firemrshallbrTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con showed that there was not enough evidence of 2nd degree murder.
Vote Placed by Sky_ace25 3 years ago
Sky_ace25
KnoxOpz92firemrshallbrTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Wasn't really much of a debate. Con did most of the argumentation, and Pro didn't really have any proactive reasons to support Pro's position.
Vote Placed by MrJosh 3 years ago
MrJosh
KnoxOpz92firemrshallbrTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro didn't really formulate an argument.