Zoophilia/Bestiality should be legal and is not inherently immoral
(A) Explaining the Resolution
The resolution has proven itself vulnerable to misunderstanding or misrepresentation in the past therefore I will spell out exactly what it means.
Saying X should be legal/moral does not mean everything that belongs in that category is legal/moral; it means that something should not be illegal or immoral because it is X.
Example: driving a car should be legal and is moral
Misconception: running people over with a car is not moral, yet it qualifies as driving a car so driving a car shouldn’t be legal.
Clarification: Killing people is what is immoral and should be illegal in that action, not driving a car.
Therefore the resolution does not mean that every act of bestiality is moral and should be legal, but that an act is not immoral and should not be illegal solely because it bestiality.
Because of the length constraints a completely specified argument is impossible, indeed it would take a small book. I will however assert some premises which my opponent must accept, if a potential opponent thinks these are unfair premises we can have a separate debate on that.
Premise B.1) Legality and morality are inherently linked, if something is moral it should be legal and if is legal it should be moral. Note this is not implying that if something is illegal at a given time or place it is immoral nor is it implying that if something is legal it is moral. Morality is independent of law, but law should be dependent on morality.
Premise B.2) Baring a full derivation and support of a moral theory, the relevant theory in the case of bestiality/zoophilia is mutual consent of interacting parties + reasonable avoidance of foreseeable pain or biological damage. No other moral standard shall be accepted. For those interested I hold a more constrained view as a universal principle for human society, i.e. consent is the prerequisite of all moral interaction between humans.
Premise B.3) The resolution makes a claim about what law should be but does not rely on any existing law, precedence, standard, or tradition of any kind. The fact that law has traditionally defined consent in a manner that makes it impossible for animals to demonstrate it in court is irrelevant. Only the definition of concept given here is to be referenced or used.
(C) Implications: From these premises I would like to preempt possible strategies of my opponent by implication. The premises above prohibit these strategies.
(C.1) B.1 means I will not entertain the notion that even if bestiality/zoophilia is moral it is somehow detrimental to society and that constitutes a legal basis for banning it.
(C.2) B.2 means that I will not entertain sentiments which associate the term morality with emotional appeals, religious dogma, or mindless whim. Consent and biological harm are well defined objectively verifiable concepts.
(C.3) B.2 & B.3 mean you are willing to debate the matter of consent or harm as defined here. A brief justification for excluding legally defined consent is given but the topic is still not open for contest in the scope of this debate.
I reserve the right to deem other strategies incompatible with the premises you accepted with the debate.
(D.1) Bestiality – the practice of interspecies sex specifically involving humans as one of the species.
(D.2) Zoophilia – the sexual orientation which describes a permanent sexual attraction towards animals by humans.
(D.3) Rape – the forcing of sexual intercourse onto an organism capable of intelligent self-determination without their consent. NOTE consent as defined below.
(D.4) Pain – the discomfort of an organism, established by some objective observation of behavior or biology.
(D.5) Biological Damage – the objectively observable harm that that impairs the value, usefulness, or normal function of some organ or tissue in an organism.
(D.6) Consent– and this is important, is defined as “permission for something to happen or agreement to do something” http://oxforddictionaries.com... .
(E) Burden of Proof
My burden of proof is to show that it is possible that an animal can consent to sex with a human. The core argument relates this to the resolution. I believe this burden is met by the end of this first post. It is not sufficient for my opponent to simply assert I have not met the burden he/she must explain why my argument here does not do so.
My opponent’s burden of proof is to either defeat the argument for consent, or prove it impossible for a human to mate with any species without causing pain or physical damage.
(F) Informed/legal Consent vs Consent
I am fully aware that the idea of informed consent in legal circles is different and much stricter. I do not mean legal/informed consent when I say consent. No one who has a pet, no one who has partook in any animal derived products has ever had informed consent from any animals. It is an impossibility even for humans to give perfect informed consent because it presupposes that both parties are perfectly aware of the consequences of an action. Something that requires the ability to predict the future with 100% certainty.
In practice what is meant by informed consent is that one party discloses any information about the interaction which may reasonably be expected to affect the other’s decision. If one party does not have the information it cannot be given. If the other party is incapable of receiving the information it is not considered a requirement.
For instance, you bring an unconscious stranger into a hospital, the doctor will still treat them on the presumption that they want to be healed. This is implied consent but cannot be informed consent.
The point is that informed consent, while an objective standard, relies on the context of the typical human mind and language. It loses applicability beyond the scope of the human race, attempting to apply it to morals involving non-humans leads to contradictions and absurdities.
If in the ‘eyes of the law’ no animal can ever consent then no animal has ever consented to another animal. That means every single sexual encounter in the whole of history before mankind was in fact rape. I consider the above a valid form of Reductio ad absurdum http://en.wikipedia.org...
Finally I would like to point out that current legal precedence and tradition never tries to apply informed consent to animals. All anti-bestiality laws appear to be based on either religion or the concept of abuse. The law does not care about informed consent of animals now and I am not advocating that change. If a potential opponent does not think I have laid out valid reasons why informed consent is morally and legally inapplicable to animals, we can have another debate about it before they accept this one.
(G) Core Argument:
/ If a practice is moral it should be legal (Premise 1)
/ Bestiality is a moral practice – see Support of Morality
// Bestiality should be legal
(H) Support of Morality - Consent:
Under the constraints set out above the question is:
(H.1) Can an animal give permission or agreement to a member of another species for sexual interaction?
Remember since I only need one exception to break the rule, if there is ever a case where the answer to H.1 is yes I have established that immorality is not inherent in bestiality, I can say it is moral as per section A. There are two possible reasons why the answer to that could be no in all cases:
(H.2) No species is capable of communicating permission, agreement, or anything really to a member of another species implicitly or explicitly.
(H.3) No species is psychologically capable of granting consent to another species
That means if I can negate (show to be false) both of these statements then there must exist some cases where the answer to the question H.1 is YES.
/ ~H.2 / ~H.3 // H.1
(H.4) – Negation of H.3
Why would humans be the only species capable of accepting interspecies sex? How can observed instances of interspecies sex between two non-human species be reconciled with H.3?
(H.5) – Negation of H.2
(H.5.1) It is impossible for a creature to pursue an action to which it does not consent provided it does not fear retribution for failure to comply.
This can be established easily by looking at its negation which is “It is possible for a creature to pursue a course of action it does not consent to, even if there is no fear of retribution for failure to comply”. It’s a contradiction in terms.
(H.5.2) If a mind can agree with anything it must agree with itself.
Note: Reflexes are biologically and behaviorally differentiable from choice.
(H.5.3) Therefore even in the absence of verbal or body language, if an animal pursues a course of action where no negative consequences have ever been employed as the result of failing to pursue said course of action, then it has implicitly communicated its intention and its acceptance of the action. If that action is in fact an interaction it must also consent to the interaction.
(H.5.4) To compound that point most animals which zoophiles are interested in mating with are quite capable of body language and vocal communication of a basic sort. Note that “Yes” and “No” are very basic communications which any higher animal owner can attest to understanding.
These youtube videos are among thousands of publically available images, videos, and reports detailing the sexual advances towards humans by animals, it provides the last piece in my argument for consent, action implying consent absent negative conditioning. They may be posted as a joke but what they display is real.
(I) Support of Morality - Harm:
The burden of proof is on my opponent to demonstrate harm is necessary.
(J)I want to wrap up with an example question: Horseback riding. Do you believe a horse can consent to being ridden? How would you know?
AN ANIMAL CANNOT GIVE CONSENT TOO SEX!
An animal cannot speak in human words. It cannot tell you stop. Therefore, it's wrong for someone to have sex with a creature that cannot defend itself.
"I'm going to say this and hopefully, I will only have to say this once."
hehe, I hope you only say it once too; I despise debaters who feel the need to periodically restate their conclusions emphatically especially if they didn't support them in the interim.
“AN ANIMAL CANNOT GIVE CONSENT TOO SEX!”
YES HE/SHE CAN, and I can promise you that is the last time you’ll get that from me; I will not participate in an infantile yes no contest. My round one argument is my support for this statement, read section E again and explain to me what you think it means.
“An animal cannot speak in human words. It cannot tell you stop. Therefore, it's wrong for someone to have sex with a creature that cannot defend itself.”
You’re missing an awful lot of premises for that to be an argument. Why does an animal’s inability to speak or tell you to stop mean it’s wrong to have sex with a creature that cannot defend itself?
Have you considered that speaking is not the only way to communicate that you would like another creature to stop what it’s doing?
Have you thought about what it means to say “can’t defend itself”? Do you know that humans can have sex with animals that weigh 2,200 lb without use of ropes, whips, or even treats? An animal like that could crush a human to mush if they wanted to and all you would hear about is the naked corpse of a zoophile being found later.
Better update it, not “can’t defend themselves” but “don’t seem to think they need defending.”
Basically, what you're saying it's okay to have sex with a creature that can't say no or fight back. You know that is basically rape right?
And if an animal kills someone who was trying to have sex with it, good for them. It's not a willing partner. It cannot say yes or no.
"You're sick, do you know that?"
No, ad hom
"Basically, what you're saying it's okay to have sex with a creature that can't say no or fight back. You know that is basically rape right?"
The creatures I am talking about could communicate "no" and can fight back.
"And if an animal kills someone who was trying to have sex with it, good for them. "
"It's not a willing partner. It cannot say yes or no."
See my argument.
If humans were made to have sex with animals, then it would have been so. But it isn't. It goes against nature. Humans have no right to forcefully have sex with animals.
And again I say, an animal cannot give consent. All it can do is bark, meow, grunt or whatever. People can take that to mean many different things. Animals are smart but they don't have the ability to speak to humans in human tongue.
You also have to look at the animal's point of view. The animals probably doesn't want to have sex with a human. Why would it? It's an animal. It wants to have sex with other animals of it's species. This is a human idea created by sick perverts.
"It's still wrong."
“Animals are smart but they don't have the ability to speak to humans in human tongue.”
They don’t have the ability to speak any tongue even with each other. And no they can do more than make one sound, there are different types of barking and more for dogs.
There is body language:
And as I said in my round one argument there are their actions themselves.
Check out these photos of sick human perverts who have been transformed into animals, they just can't help themselves:
"You haven't proven anything. Those are animals trying to have sex with other animals! There is nothing wrong with that."
.... You know humans are animals too, this whole thing is about animals having sex with animals of another species. So yes I have proven that it's not only humans who think it might work. Humans aren't the only ones who are willing to try.
If there is anything unique to humanity on this issue it's our cultural resistance to the idea. It's a relic of religion just like homophobia that remains strong because many people think of their pets as childern, call themselves pet parents. They ignore the fact that these creatures are fully grown and even if they will never reach human intelligence their sexual desires and capabilities do develop.
That's not what people want, they just want an eternal psuedo-baby to take care of. They can't imagine that their little puppies could ever see them as objects of sexual interest so they tell themselves absurd stories about how they are just playing or trying to asert dominance.
Even though you haven't tried at all to meet the burden of proof I guess we'll see if some good can come of your last round. So I have a question for you, throughout the world artifical vaginas and mounting contraptions are used to collect stallion sperm.
What if (as in the story of the minotian queen Pasiphaë and the white bull) you put a human in one of those collection machines? Do you think the stallion would care? When does it become rape and why?
|Agreed with before the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Agreed with after the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Who had better conduct:||-||-||1 point|
|Had better spelling and grammar:||-||-||1 point|
|Made more convincing arguments:||-||-||3 points|
|Used the most reliable sources:||-||-||2 points|
|Total points awarded:||6||0|