The Instigator
ADreamOfLiberty
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
whysobutthurt
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Zoophilia/Bestiality should be legal and is not inherently immoral

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/30/2013 Category: Society
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,767 times Debate No: 39667
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (70)
Votes (0)

 

ADreamOfLiberty

Pro

(A) Explaining the Resolution

The resolution has proven itself vulnerable to misunderstanding or misrepresentation in the past therefore I will spell out exactly what it means.

Saying X should be legal/moral does not mean everything that belongs in that category is legal/moral; it means that something should not be illegal or immoral because it is X.

Example: driving a car should be legal and is moral

Misconception: running people over with a car is not moral, yet it qualifies as driving a car so driving a car shouldn’t be legal.

Clarification: Killing people is what is immoral and should be illegal in that action, not driving a car.

Therefore the resolution does not mean that every act of bestiality is moral and should be legal, but that an act is not immoral and should not be illegal solely because it bestiality.

(B) Preconditions

Because of the length constraints a completely specified argument is impossible, indeed it would take a small book. I will however assert some premises which my opponent must accept, if a potential opponent thinks these are unfair premises we can have a separate debate on that.

Premise B.1) Legality and morality are inherently linked, if something is moral it should be legal and if is legal it should be moral. Note this is not implying that if something is illegal at a given time or place it is immoral nor is it implying that if something is legal it is moral. Morality is independent of law, but law should be dependent on morality.

Premise B.2) Baring a full derivation and support of a moral theory, the relevant theory in the case of bestiality/zoophilia is mutual consent of interacting parties + reasonable avoidance of foreseeable pain or biological damage. No other moral standard shall be accepted. For those interested I hold a more constrained view as a universal principle for human society, i.e. consent is the prerequisite of all moral interaction between humans.

Premise B.3) The resolution makes a claim about what law should be but does not rely on any existing law, precedence, standard, or tradition of any kind. The fact that law has traditionally defined consent in a manner that makes it impossible for animals to demonstrate it in court is irrelevant. Only the definition of concept given here is to be referenced or used.


(C) Implications: From these premises I would like to preempt possible strategies of my opponent by implication. The premises above prohibit these strategies.

(C.1) B.1 means I will not entertain the notion that even if bestiality/zoophilia is moral it is somehow detrimental to society and that constitutes a legal basis for banning it.

(C.2) B.2 means that I will not entertain sentiments which associate the term morality with emotional appeals, religious dogma, or mindless whim. Consent and biological harm are well defined objectively verifiable concepts.

(C.3) B.2 & B.3 mean you are willing to debate the matter of consent or harm as defined here. A brief justification for excluding legally defined consent is given but the topic is still not open for contest in the scope of this debate.

I reserve the right to deem other strategies incompatible with the premises you accepted with the debate.

(D) Definitions

(D.1) Bestiality – the practice of interspecies sex specifically involving humans as one of the species.

(D.2) Zoophilia – the sexual orientation which describes a permanent sexual attraction towards animals by humans.

(D.3) Rape – the forcing of sexual intercourse onto an organism capable of intelligent self-determination without their consent. NOTE consent as defined below.

(D.4) Pain – the discomfort of an organism, established by some objective observation of behavior or biology.

(D.5) Biological Damage – the objectively observable harm that that impairs the value, usefulness, or normal function of some organ or tissue in an organism.

(D.6) Consentand this is important, is defined as “permission for something to happen or agreement to do something” http://oxforddictionaries.com... .

(E) Burden of Proof

My burden of proof is to show that it is possible that an animal can consent to sex with a human. The core argument relates this to the resolution. I believe this burden is met by the end of this first post. It is not sufficient for my opponent to simply assert I have not met the burden he/she must explain why my argument here does not do so.

My opponent’s burden of proof is to either defeat the argument for consent, or prove it impossible for a human to mate with any species without causing pain or physical damage.

(F) Informed/legal Consent vs Consent

I am fully aware that the idea of informed consent in legal circles is different and much stricter. I do not mean legal/informed consent when I say consent. No one who has a pet, no one who has partook in any animal derived products has ever had informed consent from any animals. It is an impossibility even for humans to give perfect informed consent because it presupposes that both parties are perfectly aware of the consequences of an action. Something that requires the ability to predict the future with 100% certainty.

In practice what is meant by informed consent is that one party discloses any information about the interaction which may reasonably be expected to affect the other’s decision. If one party does not have the information it cannot be given. If the other party is incapable of receiving the information it is not considered a requirement.

For instance, you bring an unconscious stranger into a hospital, the doctor will still treat them on the presumption that they want to be healed. This is implied consent but cannot be informed consent.

The point is that informed consent, while an objective standard, relies on the context of the typical human mind and language. It loses applicability beyond the scope of the human race, attempting to apply it to morals involving non-humans leads to contradictions and absurdities.

If in the ‘eyes of the law’ no animal can ever consent then no animal has ever consented to another animal. That means every single sexual encounter in the whole of history before mankind was in fact rape. I consider the above a valid form of Reductio ad absurdum http://en.wikipedia.org...

Finally I would like to point out that current legal precedence and tradition never tries to apply informed consent to animals. All anti-bestiality laws appear to be based on either religion or the concept of abuse. The law does not care about informed consent of animals now and I am not advocating that change. If a potential opponent does not think I have laid out valid reasons why informed consent is morally and legally inapplicable to animals, we can have another debate about it before they accept this one.

(G) Core Argument:

/ If a practice is moral it should be legal (Premise 1)

/ Bestiality is a moral practice – see Support of Morality

// Bestiality should be legal

(H) Support of Morality - Consent:

Under the constraints set out above the question is:

(H.1) Can an animal give permission or agreement to a member of another species for sexual interaction?

Remember since I only need one exception to break the rule, if there is ever a case where the answer to H.1 is yes I have established that immorality is not inherent in bestiality, I can say it is moral as per section A. There are two possible reasons why the answer to that could be no in all cases:

(H.2) No species is capable of communicating permission, agreement, or anything really to a member of another species implicitly or explicitly.

(H.3) No species is psychologically capable of granting consent to another species

That means if I can negate (show to be false) both of these statements then there must exist some cases where the answer to the question H.1 is YES.

/ ~H.2 / ~H.3 // H.1

(H.4) – Negation of H.3

Why would humans be the only species capable of accepting interspecies sex? How can observed instances of interspecies sex between two non-human species be reconciled with H.3?

(H.5) – Negation of H.2

(H.5.1) It is impossible for a creature to pursue an action to which it does not consent provided it does not fear retribution for failure to comply.

This can be established easily by looking at its negation which is “It is possible for a creature to pursue a course of action it does not consent to, even if there is no fear of retribution for failure to comply”. It’s a contradiction in terms.

(H.5.2) If a mind can agree with anything it must agree with itself.

Note: Reflexes are biologically and behaviorally differentiable from choice.

(H.5.3) Therefore even in the absence of verbal or body language, if an animal pursues a course of action where no negative consequences have ever been employed as the result of failing to pursue said course of action, then it has implicitly communicated its intention and its acceptance of the action. If that action is in fact an interaction it must also consent to the interaction.

(H.5.4) To compound that point most animals which zoophiles are interested in mating with are quite capable of body language and vocal communication of a basic sort. Note that “Yes” and “No” are very basic communications which any higher animal owner can attest to understanding.

These youtube videos are among thousands of publically available images, videos, and reports detailing the sexual advances towards humans by animals, it provides the last piece in my argument for consent, action implying consent absent negative conditioning. They may be posted as a joke but what they display is real.

http://scienceblogs.com...



(I) Support of Morality - Harm:

The burden of proof is on my opponent to demonstrate harm is necessary.

(J)I want to wrap up with an example question: Horseback riding. Do you believe a horse can consent to being ridden? How would you know?

whysobutthurt

Con

Why? there is plenty of disgusting women that will allow you to arse plow them.
Debate Round No. 1
ADreamOfLiberty

Pro

The number of disgusting women is irrelevant, please see section E which describes your burden of proof.
whysobutthurt

Con

whysobutthurt forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
ADreamOfLiberty

Pro

ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzz ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz
whysobutthurt

Con

whysobutthurt forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
ADreamOfLiberty

Pro

4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42
whysobutthurt

Con

whysobutthurt forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
ADreamOfLiberty

Pro

Well Percy, how far is it around this circle?

I don't know milord, it could be anything.

Suppose it's exactly one league across as the crow flies Percy do tell me.

Well in that case I should say it's 3.1415926535 8979323846 2643383279 5028841971 6939937510 5820974944 5923078164 0628620899 8628034825 3421170679 8214808651 3282306647 0938446095 5058223172 5359408128 4811174502 8410270193 8521105559 6446229489 5493038196 4428810975 6659334461 2847564823 3786783165 2712019091 4564856692 3460348610 4543266482 1339360726 0249141273 7245870066 0631558817 4881520920 9628292540 9171536436 7892590360 0113305305 4882046652 1384146951 9415116094 3305727036 5759591953 0921861173 8193261179 3105118548 0744623799 6274956735 1885752724 8912279381 8301194912 9833673362 4406566430 8602139494 6395224737 1907021798 6094370277 0539217176 2931767523 8467481846 7669405132 0005681271 4526356082 7785771342 7577896091 7363717872 1468440901 2249534301 4654958537 1050792279 6892589235 4201995611 2129021960 8640344181 5981362977 4771309960 5187072113 4999999837 2978049951 0597317328 1609631859 5024459455 3469083026 4252230825 3344685035 2619311881 7101000313 7838752886 5875332083 8142061717 7669147303 5982534904 2875546873 1159562863 8823537875 9375195778 1857780532 1712268066 1300192787 6611195909 2164201989 3809525720 1065485863 2788659361 5338182796 8230301952 0353018529 6899577362 2599413891 2497217752 8347913151 5574857242 4541506959 5082953311 6861727855 8890750983 8175463746 4939319255 0604009277 0167113900 9848824012 8583616035 6370766010 4710181942 9555961989 4676783744 9448255379 7747268471 0404753464 6208046684 2590694912 9331367702 8989152104 7521620569 6602405803 8150193511 2533824300 3558764024 7496473263 9141992726 0426992279 6782354781 6360093417 2164121992 4586315030 2861829745 5570674983 8505494588 5869269956 9092721079 7509302955 3211653449 8720275596 0236480665 4991198818 3479775356 6369807426 5425278625 5181841757 4672890977 7727938000 8164706001 6145249192 1732172147 7235014144 1973568548 1613611573 5255213347 5741849468 4385233239 0739414333 4547762416 8625189835 6948556209 9219222184 2725502542 5688767179 0494601653 4668049886 2723279178 6085784383 8279679766 8145410095 3883786360 9506800642 2512520511 7392984896 0841284886 2694560424 1965285022 2106611863 0674427862 2039194945 0471237137 8696095636 4371917287 4677646575 7396241389 0865832645 9958133904 7802759009 9465764078 9512694683 9835259570 9825822620 5224894077 2671947826 8482601476 9909026401 3639443745 5305068203 4962524517 4939965143 1429809190 6592509372 2169646151 5709858387 4105978859 5977297549 8930161753 9284681382 6868386894 2774155991 8559252459 5395943104 9972524680 8459872736 4469584865 3836736222 6260991246 0805124388 4390451244 1365497627 8079771569 1435997700 1296160894 4169486855 5848406353 4220722258 2848864815 8456028506 0168427394 5226746767 8895252138 5225499546 6672782398 6456596116 3548862305 7745649803 5593634568 1743241125 1507606947 9451096596 0940252288 7971089314 5669136867 2287489405 6010150330 8617928680 9208747609 1782493858 9009714909 6759852613 6554978189 3129784821 6829989487 2265880485 7564014270 4775551323 7964145152 3746234364 5428584447 9526586782 1051141354 7357395231 1342716610 2135969536 2314429524 8493718711 0145765403 5902799344 0374200731 0578539062 1983874478 0847848968 3321445713 8687519435 0643021845 3191048481 0053706146 8067491927 8191197939 9520614196 6342875444 0643745123 7181921799 9839101591 9561814675 1426912397 4894090718 6494231961
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Percy that's simply too short you must be wrong...
whysobutthurt

Con

whysobutthurt forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
70 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ADreamOfLiberty 3 years ago
ADreamOfLiberty
"Let me consider at least some of the facts, only then can I say if a logical/objective conclusion can clearly be made.. Not sure why this concept is so difficult to grasp."

Consider away
Posted by jusfacts 3 years ago
jusfacts
I believe I showed you that "standard" could be used interchangeably with method. So I could alternatively say objective method or even objective judgment. The focus is really about "objective" or "objectivity".

"Yes if a heart stops a human will die. How do you know that isn't what's supposed to happen?"

I never said it "isn't what's supposed to happen..". Check again if you need to but I made no comments either way so I don't see the relevance.

If you think that what is "supposed to happen" can be evaluated right here without some associated facts, it means you may be willing to make a subjective conclusion. Let me consider at least some of the facts, only then can I say if a logical/objective conclusion can clearly be made.. Not sure why this concept is so difficult to grasp.
Posted by ADreamOfLiberty 3 years ago
ADreamOfLiberty
I know what it means, but what is the standard?

Yes if a heart stops a human will die. How do you know that isn't what's supposed to happen?
Posted by jusfacts 3 years ago
jusfacts
"non-subjective" meaning "objective".

I'll demonstrate with 3 familiar sentences.

1. If the heart stops beating in a living human being and never gets restarted, can you logically/objectively identify the more likely event between A and B?

2. If the heart stops beating in a living human being and never gets restarted, can you objectively determine the most likely event between A and B?

3. If the heart stops beating in a living human being and never gets restarted, can you determine using an objective method/standard the most likely event between A and B?

These are all the same.

you may be grasping the concept ..."B" sounds like the logical choice. seems you answered your own question ("[objectively]....expected by whom?"). ["expected" meaning most likely]

Perhaps, this objective, "all the facts only", non-subjective stuff is a bit too troubling for you and your subjective arguments/approach. As I have previously indicated, subjectivity has no place in honest, genuine debate.
Posted by ADreamOfLiberty 3 years ago
ADreamOfLiberty
b., what non-subjective standard?
Posted by jusfacts 3 years ago
jusfacts
A non-subjective standard.

But before we get too ridiculous, perhaps you should answer the following question directly:

If the heart stops beating in a living human being and never gets restarted, what is logically/objectively the most likely event?
a. the person lives
b. the person dies
Posted by ADreamOfLiberty 3 years ago
ADreamOfLiberty
"Whenever a heart stops beating in a living human being and never gets restarted, the person always dies and is expected to die. It never goes the other way, not a single instance. We can conclude objectively that this is an expected or normal scenario."

Expected by whom, normal by what standard?
Posted by jusfacts 3 years ago
jusfacts
"I don't but how can you tell if something is doing what it's supposed to be doing?"

Another way of looking at this..

Whenever a heart stops beating in a living human being and never gets restarted, the person always dies and is expected to die. It never goes the other way, not a single instance. We can conclude objectively that this is an expected or normal scenario. It would be illogical to conclude that the person living after the heart stops is the normal/expected scenario when it has never occurred nor is reasonably expected to occur using scientific facts. Another no brainer. But it seems you're not too big on logical conclusions. You're continuously re-affirming subjectivity.
Posted by jusfacts 3 years ago
jusfacts
"I don't but how can you tell if something is doing what it's supposed to be doing?"

First of all do you know of any living human that exists without some form of a beating heart. Is it not explainable why a person becomes lifeless without a heartbeat?

Well, maybe you don't know but certainly the medical professionals know. These facts have already been worked out with present day data.
Posted by jusfacts 3 years ago
jusfacts
"It sounds like a reference system is your conception of an the ideal specimen for any given species. Is that accurate?"

This is not accurate.

It provides a complete definition for any particular system, species, etc. It can identify both ideal and flawed samples of the same system, species, etc.
No votes have been placed for this debate.