The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
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The Contender
cjhill
Con (against)
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10 Points

a christian had they lived in the OTestament days should not have been compelled to stone sinners

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Post Voting Period
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after 2 votes the winner is...
cjhill
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/18/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 517 times Debate No: 36807
Debate Rounds (3)
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Votes (2)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

a christian had they lived in the OTestament days shouldn't have been compelled to stone sinners

are you a christian who would have stoned people, as commanded in the days of the OTestament? I am asking only christians who believe the bible is infallible.

almost no one i've ever met or discussed this stuff has said that they would.

basically, the only argument i can make against why we shouldnt have stoned them, had we lived back then, is because the bible is not necessarily the word of God.

i realize some like to argue that the deaths are examples that show that the wages of sin is death. this is a plausible point, but can you argue all this stuff to justify it, while also admitting that you too would stone them?
if so, are you comfortable with your decision that you too would stone people?

please give more arguments for why you genuinely feel they should have been stoned.

i realize, especially for the super religious types, that a test of whether something is true or not, is not what you feel based on your own emotion, but rather based on something firmer. to catholics it is CC teaching, etc.

"While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36) "

even Jesus in the NTestament seemed on the surface to say that they should have been stoned.

Matthew 15
Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don"t wash their hands before they eat!"

3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, "Honor your father and mother"[a] and "Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death."[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is "devoted to God," 6 they are not to "honor their father or mother" with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

8 ""These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules."[c]"

"Anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death. (Leviticus 24:16)

If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death?the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)

If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5)

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' (Leviticus 20:27)

While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36)

But seat two scoundrels opposite him and have them testify that he has cursed both God and the king. Then take him out and stone him to death." (1 Kings 21:10)

"If a bull gores a man or a woman to death, the bull must be stoned to death, and its meat must not be eaten. But the owner of the bull will not be held responsible. (Exodus 21:28)
cjhill

Con

The CON will argue that a Christian who lived during OT times would not have been condemned for stone sinners.

Firstly, the CON will show that it is possible to be a "Christian" during OT times.

A Christian, in the true sense of the word, is one in whom Jesus Christ lives -- through the Holy Spirit. Paul said that Christ was living in him (Galatians 2:20), and that we are only true Christians, if His Spirit dwells in us: "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, he is not His" (Romans 8:9). Paul even adds the thought that we will only enter the kingdom of God by a resurrection from the dead, if the Holy Spirit dwells in us at the time of our death (Romans 8:11).

However, prior to New Testament times, nobody was called a "Christian," per se. We read, in Acts 11:26, that "the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch." Subsequently, the term became known as a description for Christ's followers, and was used both by unconverted people (Acts 26:28) and by converted disciples (1 Peter 4:16).

One such follower Apostle Paul was a Jew who existed on the fringe of Christian/Israelite contention and, as a person, encapsulated the idea of going from a slave of the OT law, to a freeman under the new covenant established after Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

Before Paul et al, there were Jews who had faith like Abraham and Jews who did not (Galatians 3:8). Therefore, the Jews who had faith like Abraham will fit the description we seek, since they were looking forward to Christ's death in the same way that Christians, from Paul's time onward, have faith in the already past work of Christ's death.

Indeed, the ancients of old had to have that same faith by believing in Christ as their Savior BEFORE He had even died for them. Only the Holy Spirit within them could have given them that kind of faith. Therefore, although the holy saints of God, living in Old Testament times, were not specifically referred to as "Christians," they were, indeed, Christians, as we understand this expression today.

Then the question becomes: Should an OT Jew, who had the faith of Abraham(a Christian as defined above), have participated in the stoning of an offender of the law? CON believes that this would have been acceptable.

Though both Jews of faith of the OT and Christian's today share the exact same faith, they do not share the exact same covenant. When Jesus came and was sacrificed at Calvary the Old Covenant was no longer in effect. This ushered the New Covenant which emphasizes forgiveness through His shed blood. Forgiveness for sin is given after heartfelt repentance to Him alone.

Some stipulations of the old covenant have clearly not been renewed in the new covenant. For example, those laws which specify penalties for various old covenant violations for which one might be punished, i.e. death by stoning for picking up sticks or kindling a fire on the Sabbath, etc. As well as those ritual laws outlining the details of Israel's worship including ceremonial sacrifices.

Therefore a Christian under the old covenant would be bound to the stipulations set forth under it. In essence, an OT christian would not be condemned for participating in the stoning of an offender of law.
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

dairygirl4u2c forfeited this round.
cjhill

Con

extend past arguments
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

i didnt want you to argue whether it was okay or not to stone them, i only awnted you to argue if you yourself would have stoned sinners. it makes the argument personal. you chose not to stick your neck out on teh matter
cjhill

Con

extend past arguments
Debate Round No. 3
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Vote Placed by Mrparkers 3 years ago
Mrparkers
dairygirl4u2ccjhillTied
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Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by GOP 3 years ago
GOP
dairygirl4u2ccjhillTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro FF'd and made capitalization errors. Pro also stopped making arguments after the first round, hence Con extended the previous arguments.