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dairygirl4u2c
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PETEngineer
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a christian had they lived in the OTestament days shouldn't have been compelled to stone sinners

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/18/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 314 times Debate No: 36815
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dairygirl4u2c

Pro

a christian had they lived in the OTestament days shouldn't have been compelled to stone sinners

are you a christian who would have stoned people, as commanded in the days of the OTestament? I am asking only christians who believe the bible is infallible.

almost no one i've ever met or discussed this stuff has said that they would.

basically, the only argument i can make against why we shouldnt have stoned them, had we lived back then, is because the bible is not necessarily the word of God.

i realize some like to argue that the deaths are examples that show that the wages of sin is death. this is a plausible point, but can you argue all this stuff to justify it, while also admitting that you too would stone them?
if so, are you comfortable with your decision that you too would stone people?

please give more arguments for why you genuinely feel they should have been stoned.

i realize, especially for the super religious types, that a test of whether something is true or not, is not what you feel based on your own emotion, but rather based on something firmer. to catholics it is CC teaching, etc.

"While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36) "

even Jesus in the NTestament seemed on the surface to say that they should have been stoned.

Matthew 15
Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don"t wash their hands before they eat!"

3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, "Honor your father and mother"[a] and "Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death."[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is "devoted to God," 6 they are not to "honor their father or mother" with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

8 ""These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules."[c]"

"Anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death. (Leviticus 24:16)

If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death?the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)

If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5)

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' (Leviticus 20:27)

While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36)

But seat two scoundrels opposite him and have them testify that he has cursed both God and the king. Then take him out and stone him to death." (1 Kings 21:10)

"If a bull gores a man or a woman to death, the bull must be stoned to death, and its meat must not be eaten. But the owner of the bull will not be held responsible. (Exodus 21:28)
PETEngineer

Con

My argument is based upon the belief that God is all-knowing and all-powerful. As such, He created all, and His word is infallible.

By way of background, Jews living under the Law of Moses were called to live under a certain standard. However, when Christ came, He fulfilled the Law and established His covenant, under which Christians live today.

Due to these differences, my answer of stoning becomes a matter of timing. If I were a Jew living under the Old Law, yes I would stone a sinner; however, as a Christian living today, no.

The Old Law is described as a steward or caretaker of the Jewish people. Its purpose was to prepare the nation of Israel for what would come next (Jesus) and protect them from the sins of the world.

The Old Law seems harsh to many, in part, because of verses like the ones you have listed previously. However, those who believe in God as the Almighty Creator must always keep perspective. God created all, and He answers to no one; thus, what He chooses to do with His creation is completely up to Him regardless of what His reasons may be. He chose to save the Jews because of a promise made to Abraham. He was in no way required to save anyone. His grace and love for His creation, as well as His nature to honor His promises, caused Him to save Israel. An uncaring God wouldn"t have saved anyone.

Now, as the "harshness" of the Old Law, this is also easily justified. If someone believes that God is not only all-powerful to create, but also all-knowing, then His wisdom surpasses human understanding. He knows what is best for us even better than we can ever know ourselves.

The nation of Israel was called to be holy (set apart from the world), and when the Old Law called for a "harsh" punishment, such as stoning or the eradication of entire civilizations (as in the book of Joshua), it was because God deemed it best for the nation of Israel that such an action be taken.

The consequences of failing to uphold the Law are given throughout the OT. The time of the Judges was filled with
turmoil because Israel did not completely cleanse Canaan when they entered the land. Solomon"s downfall was caused because he had many foreign wives, and they drew him away from God (Solomon was not setting himself apart from the world). Because of Solomon"s sin, God punished Israel by splitting the kingdom in half.

People speak of God in the OT as being an angry God, but they have missed the larger point. God at any time could have destroyed the nation of Israel for their unbelief, but instead, He punished them and then forgave them and offered a way of repentance. In the end, this forgiveness was extended to all the earth as the final part of God"s promise to Abraham that the whole world would be saved through his seed (Jesus).

Now the comment about Jesus, I am not quite sure I understand your point. In this scene, Christ is accusing the Pharisees of hypocrisy because their accusations of others not obeying when they themselves didn"t obey either.

This becomes the issue of lip service. Proper faith in and worship of God must be carried out in spirit and in truth. The Pharisees had the truth part down (and that is giving them a lot of credit) but were lacking the spirit part (basically they were doing the right thing for the wrong reason). They would twist the word of the Law such that it served their ends.

I won"t accuse all people who believe differently than I do of committing the same sin as the Pharisees. There are many today who worship more passionately and fervently than I do, but who do not worship in truth. And there are those who will do as the Pharisees and twist the words of the Bible to justify their actions. We as Christians have the responsibility to search the Bible for the truth of it, and we must also come to the realization that what God has done for us is greater than we can fathom, and thus, we worship Him because we choose to and not because we are forced to.

As a Christian living today, we are called to teach the Word to all the world. We are not to add anything to what the Bible says, nor are we to subtract from it either. Christians are to be holy like the Israelites, but we are also supposed to spread truth to others. This is what causes the shift from stoning sinners in the OT to helping/teaching/converting/correcting sinners in the NT and today. We are in the world, but not a part of it.

To summarize, in the OT, the Israelites stoned sinners because the Old Law told them to. The Law of Moses was put in place by God to prepare Israel for Jesus, and because God is all-knowing, then when the Law called for such a punishment, it was because it was best for Israel. A follower of the Old Law would stone a sinner because it was the right thing to do to protect the Israelites.

However, when Christ died and was resurrected He did away with the Law of Moses and established His covenant, and Christians living today under the new covenant of Christ are told to convert sinners, and stoning someone to death makes this difficult, so we don"t stone people anymore.

I hope this was clear and didn't veer too far off topic.
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

dairygirl4u2c forfeited this round.
PETEngineer

Con

PETEngineer forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

dairygirl4u2c forfeited this round.
PETEngineer

Con

PETEngineer forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
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