The Instigator
twentyseven
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
EljayShaun
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

abortion is murder

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/13/2015 Category: Society
Updated: 11 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 481 times Debate No: 82513
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

twentyseven

Pro

Abortion is the killing of a person.i believe abortion at anytime in a pregnancy is wrong and should be illegal.If you believe otherwise accept the debate.
EljayShaun

Con

I, Con, accept the challenge, and will be arguing that abortion is not wrong anytime in a pregnancy and should be made legal. I look forward to Pro starting the debate.
Debate Round No. 1
twentyseven

Pro

1 Science. Science says life begins at conception,and killing a unborn baby is murder.Here's how. When the sperm reaches the egg,the sperm then fuses with the egg to form the zygote.The zygote is a new person.Because when the 23 chromosomes from the sperm fuses with the 23 chromosomes of the egg,the dna of both the father and mother are one.The new zygote has all 46 of it's chromosomes that it will have for the rest of it's life..The zygote grows and in jus.t 18 days the new person can feel pain. So science says that the baby in the womb can feel pain,has a beating heart 4 months after conception ,looks like a baby,so the fact is . it is a baby and not a some mass of cells. since we know it's a baby,the question is should women be able to kill the child in their womb.Since the baby inside the womb is a underdeveloped child,just as a child is a underdeveloped adult.It would be sensible to say that abortion is the same as a person killing their 1 year old baby. We all agree that a parent murdering their 1 year old is wrong and evil,Since the unborn is just as human as a 1 year old,it is indeed just as wrong. So all laws that protect people that has been born also should protect the unborn
EljayShaun

Con

From a scientific point of view, Pro is right. Aborting a baby is the equivalent of murdering it. But I disagree with Pro when he says that it is the equivalent of murdering a live person, therefore it is wrong to have an abortion. We have to examine the issue deeper, and understand why we consider murder wrong and why, I would argue, it does not apply to babies in their mothers' wombs.

First of all, in some cases, killing in some cases would be considered wrong due to the amount of pain it causes, a point which Pro raised. But this does not apply to abortions. If the fetus is less than 20 months old, it is incapable of feeling pain and will not have to endure pain or suffering during the procedure. Even if the fetus is more than 20 months old, the procedure will usually be painless as it involves taking "abortion pills" which do not hurt the fetus physically and cause physical pain. Considering that more than 99% of abortions occur before the fetus is 20 months old, I think the pain that the fetus endures is irrelevant when discussing abortion.

Another reason why murder is considered wrong may be because it may cause suffering and pain to the deceased's friends and family. But in the case of an abortion, I would contend that an abortion does the opposite. There are many reasons why one would get an abortion, but the number 1 reason is because of premarital/ teenage sex. The couple think that they would not be able to support a baby financially or are not mature enough to support it. So they have no choice but to abort the baby to prevent their lives from being affected. So, abortion does the opposite of suffering and pain - it can relieve the couple of lots of future suffering if they think they cannot support it.

The final reason why murder is usually considered wrong is simply because it takes away a life. The person who is murdered could have had so much potential and could do so many things in his life, and murder is essentially robbing him of his future. But I think this argument does not make sense. If you think that murder is wrong because it denies an individual's potential or future, then many other things are punishable. For example, you could punish a couple for not having sex and having a baby, saying that if they had a baby, that baby would have had so much potential and could potentially contribute greatly to society. Thus this argument is not relevant when discussing abortion as well.

As such, I believe having an abortion is justified. I look forward to Pro's replies and rebuttals.
Debate Round No. 2
twentyseven

Pro

REBUTTAL OF CON'S ARGUMENTS. 1Con says babies before 20 weeks can not feel pain. I agree,this is accepted by most people.But no can be 100% sure that a fetus younger than 20 weeks cannot feel pain.No one remembers what it was like being that young. This is my argument of why we should not abort babies that may not can feel pain. Imagine if we had a drug that you could take and feel no pain.Now imagine that a mother gives her 6 month old this drug,the 6month old could then feel no pain.Then the mother stabs the child to death.After she kills the child she says she had the right to kill it because it could not feel pain,and that it was her body(even though it wasn't) This is the same thing that's anyone that aborts a baby under 20 weeks is doing. . 2. Con says the abortion pill is not painful to the fetus. I disagree,anesthetics may be given to the fetus,but i believe it would not block the pain of being destroyed. After 20 weeks the baby can feel pain,This is confirmed by scientific studies ,the studies also say that the fetus may can feel pain more intense than after being born.This is because the body has not developed enough to deal with pain effectively. The CDC reported that in the U.S. in 2011 that 1.4% of the babies aborted after 21 weeks.Thatds 10,224 babies.So if you say that abortion should be legal after20 weeks you are saying. That a mother has the right to kill her baby,even if it causes extreme pain to thebaby.Pain.worse.than me or you will ever feel. 3. Con says abortion does not cause family and friends to suffer or have pain. I disagree. What about a father that wanted a child of his own and was expecting his baby to be born and be his child. But his wife or girlfriend goes and get
EljayShaun

Con

I thank Pro for his rebuttals of my points. I shall reply to each of Pro's points sequentially.

1. Pain. I'm sorry but it is a scientifically proven fact that babies do not feel pain before 20 weeks of being in their mothers' wombs. Pro cannot simply rebut this argument by saying "No one remembers what it was like being that young". In fact, some studies show that babies can only feel the sense of touch by 20 weeks, and only actually experience pain by 35 weeks. [1] And, as I have previously mentioned, About 99% of abortions take place before 20 weeks. [2]

2. Pro says "anesthetics may be given to the fetus, but I believe it would not block the pain of being destroyed." Why would Pro think this? The whole purpose of anesthetics is to minimise or prevent pain from being felt, which it does a good job of. Pro is right when he says that unborn babies feel more pain than any of us would, and that's exactly why doctors use anesthetics during abortions.

3. Abortions are usually carried out with the approval of both parents. There is no reason why a mother would abort a baby for no reason without the father's approval (unless she was raped). Most abortions in the US are carried out are because the couple feel they cannot afford the baby, the couple are concerned the baby will negatively affect their lives, or that they are having trouble with their relationship and want to avoid single parenthood. [3]. For all the cases above, the father of the child has to give consent to the abortion as well as the mother. It is very rare that the mother decides to abort the baby for no reason without the father's consent. [4]Only in the case of rape, in which case the mother has to file a legitimate police report, will the father not have to give consent for the abortion. [4] Therefore my point stands that abortions can relieve couples of future suffering and problems if they think they cannot support the child.

Here are my sources:
[1] - http://www.dailymail.co.uk...
[2] - http://www.abort73.com...
[3] - http://www.johnstonsarchive.net...
[4] - http://dadsrights.com...

I look forward to further discussion with Pro.
Debate Round No. 3
twentyseven

Pro

Pro's rebuttals of Con'S arguments. 1. Con did not answer my statement on why we should not kill babies that can't feel pain,so I will write it again and I expect Con to say what he thinks about it. Imagine that a mother gives her 6 month old baby a drug so that the baby could not feel pain.Then the mother stabs the baby to death.After the mother kills the baby she says that it could not feel pain,since it could not feel pain it is nothing wrong with killing the baby.She also says that the 6 month old was part of her body and that she could do whatever she wants with her body. Do you agree with the mother or do you disagree,if you state that you disagree,you are saying abortion is wrong.here's how... The mother is saying the same arguments that pro-choice people say.It is a scientific fact that unborn babies are just as much alive and human as a 6 month old.Con has agreed to this..It is also a scientific fact that the unborn baby is not part of the mother's body.The only physical connection is the umbilical cord.The umbilical cord gives the baby oxygen and nutrition.The mothers and baby's blood or dna do not mix when the baby is in the mother.They are 2 different living beings not one..The unborn baby has rights to live just like a 6month old baby.If you believe that the unborn baby is living off the mother you are correct..Just like a 6 month old lives off it's mother.Neither the unborn or borned child can take care of themselves. 2. Pain...I will agree with Con that a baby starts to feel pain at 20 weeks. 3. Con pointed out that if a woman has been raped she does not have to have the father's permission to abort. But I Pro believe we should not punish a innocent baby for what it's father has done.
EljayShaun

Con

I thank Con for his rebuttals. I shall address his concerns sequentially (numerically, in this case).

1. This is passing into the realm of morality slightly with the question Con has asked me, and as a person who subscribes to secular humanism for morality, I will try my best to answer Con's question. The main answer I would provide is that it causes pain and suffering to the baby's family. In the case of an abortion, however, as I have pointed out, most of the time an abortion is done intentionally to relieve future suffering of the couple/ woman. So the same argument for killing a toddler does not make sense when discussing an unborn baby in the mother's womb.

2. Ok...

3. I don't understand the logic here. If a woman is raped, especially concerning statutory rape, most of the time the mother intentionally aborts the child to as she feels she cannot take care of the child well. Having the baby born would be punishing both the mother and the child as the mother has to spend time and money to raise the child while the child may not have a good childhood due to the mother's inability to take care of it sufficiently or as a single-parent. On the other hand, if the man had not raped the woman, there would be nothing wrong. So, aborting the baby is the equivalent of that, as it relieves the mother and child of future stress and suffering, and in both cases, the baby would not be born anyway. No difference.

Why I am pro-abortion, or pro-choice, is simply because a mother should have the choice to decide what she wants to do with her life. I'm not saying the baby is part of the mother, though, don't get me wrong. In the case of rape, as I have just explained, an abortion can be necessary to prevent future suffering. The same thing goes for underage sex and couples who can't support a baby. Imagine a scenario where a couple who can't even support themselves financially end up having a baby. We would be saying they were dumb to even want to have a baby given their financial situation. It's only going to add suffering due to the financial burden on their part as well as on the child for it may be neglected due to its parents having to work day and night to support it. So, what they should have done was not have a child until they can ensure a future for themselves and the child. That's exactly what an abortion does.

I look forward to Pro's conclusion in the final round of the debate and his rebuttals to my points.
Debate Round No. 4
twentyseven

Pro

Rebuttal of Con's arguments. 1. Con said that killing a unborn baby is ok because it helps the parents. Pro believes that killing someone is always wrong.No matter if it helps someone else or not.so Con says that it is right to kill someone if they interfere with your life..This argument is absurd. 2. Con says that a rape victim should be able to have a abortion. Pro disagrees It is wrong to punish the baby for the fathers mistake.Pro believes the choice to carry the baby for 9 months is better than killing a innocent life,which is evil and irresponsible.The mother can always give the baby up for adoption after birth...Adoption allows the mother to not have to raise a child and she would not have to carry the guilt of killing a baby for the rest of her life. . Pro's final statement. 1. Pro has proven it is scientifically and morally wrong to have a abortion. Abortion is always wrong because it takes a life,a life that no one has the right to take..All the reasons people have abortions are because of selfishness,they think they can decide if someone has the right to live or not.They decide if the unborn baby will affect them negativity or not,if negativity they kill,and they would kill anyone that affect then,in the way they don't like,if they could get away with it....
EljayShaun

Con

EljayShaun forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by EljayShaun 1 year ago
EljayShaun
I'm really sorry I couldn't post my final argument for the 5th round here, I mistakenly thought the time for me to respond was 2 days or 3 days (as it usually is), but here it was only 1 day. I hope my lack of a rebuttal for Con's points does not invalidate my arguments.
Posted by asunnykay 1 year ago
asunnykay
I may be cold and heartless and deserve a special spot in hell next to Satan himself to some but I believe that abortion should allowed because raising a single child costs $500,000 + college. That is a fourth of what the average joe will make in his entire life if he expects to retire on time. Women should have the option to abort their pregnancy if they don't want it for whatever reason or it will affect them medically. A woman should not be forced to go through the sometimes fatal pain of birthing a child and the social, economic, mental, and physical wreck a child can have on them afterwords. Abortion may seem wrong to you but in the end it should be her choice and not the states and certainly not "twentyseven" from debate.org
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