The Instigator
nohandlebars
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
queeng
Pro (for)
Winning
41 Points

abortion

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 7 votes the winner is...
queeng
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/26/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,637 times Debate No: 42975
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (36)
Votes (7)

 

nohandlebars

Con

You start.
queeng

Pro

In going through your previous debates, I assume you are a woman, correct? With that being said, I do not understand how you could be against abortion. Being against abortion means that you think it should be completely illegal, no matter what situation you may be put into. Some do argue that it is in fact the murder of a baby, but science proves otherwise.
Debate Round No. 1
nohandlebars

Con

No actually, I chose to be a woman on Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday and sometimes Sunday depending on the weather. I don't understand why you don't know that.

Abortion should be completely illegal, with the exception of endangering a mothers life.

Abortion is murder. No buts. You are killing, murdering, swallowing the life of an infant. You are stealing the babies first breath. How does science prove otherwise? You're a horrible debater, I'm sorry.
queeng

Pro

"Abortion should be completely illegal, with the exception of endangering a mothers life."

Saying abortion should be completely illegal, means just that. Completely illegal means no exceptions. If it's life or death, you're having that baby. If a little girl is raped, she's having that baby. If you're in an abusive relationship and in no position to be bringing a life into this world, you've still having that baby. Is that what you want? Science says that life begins and ends at brain or nerve activity. According to WebMD, the first nerve activity is at the three week period. Until then, there are just cells, not a baby, or even a fetus.

http://www.webmd.com...
Debate Round No. 2
nohandlebars

Con

Actually, abortion should be completely illegal, with the except of endangering a mothers life, means exactly that. Not anything else... lol, when you quote me, actually try to come up with a good rebuttal. It's the effort that counts though.

If you're raped...why would you have an abortion? What difference does it make if it's conceived from two healthy marriage parents or rape? It's still an innocent child that does not deserve abortion. If you don't want the child, then there's something called a-d-o-p-t-i-o-n. Same with an abusive relationship.

WebMD, says nothing about nerve activity. you just listed a random site about babies, and your point is hereby, obviously wrong.

I got this from another debate, I'll comment the name and give credit in the comments later.

The definition of life is: the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.

What distinguishes us from animals, plants etc, is that the cells are human. You can tell because both of the parents are human, the chromosomes and DNA. It's growth comes from the dividing and reproduction of cells. (cell cycle) Reproduction comes later in life. If you think that this means that my entire point is invalid, then just because a baby or fetus cannot reproduce means it has the same worth as a 6 year old who cannot make babies. So then let's kill the six year old!!

Next is functional activity, which means:. A task or act that allows one to meet the demands of the environment and daily life.

The demands for the environment of the womb and daily life, include developing, eating, sleeping..

From fetuses to babies, to toddlers, to kids, to puberty, to teens to adults, to middle age to elderly to death...there is a continual change until death.

lol If your not going to put up an actual debate I'll just create another one with somebody else..
queeng

Pro

In the sense that there is now a debate in the comments too, I'd like to say a thanks for those who have joined in. Nonetheless, I think there needs to be some clarification here.

In my previous statement, I had said " I assume you are a woman, correct? With that being said, I do not understand how you could be against abortion."

In saying this, I was not intending a battle here. I simply wanted you to help me to understand your point of views. Which you have made clear, rather rudely, and not just to me. My sites were reliable, if you bothered to read them all the way through. If you want a debate, then do it properly.

According to rainn.org, there are 237,868 victims of sexual assault each year, and 44% of them are under the age of 18. Imagine being 12 years old and pregnant due to a rape. First and foremost, can your body even handle a pregnancy at that age? How could this affect her future? The younger a mother is below age 20, the greater the risk of her infant dying during the first year of life and infants born to teens are 2 - 6 times more likely to have low birth weight than those born to mothers age 20 or older. Even if a teen could later put the baby up for adoption, the baby would have already been exposed to dangerous conditions. Because you are a human being, male or female, picture this. Your baby girl, the one thing your life surrounds, is raped. She's only 8 years old. Are you going to make your child suffer through that pregnancy? Remember back to when you were carrying her. How your stomach got bigger and bigger, how you vomited in the mornings constantly, how your feet got swollen, and lets not forget the excruciating pain of labor. All in a tiny 8 year olds body. You can't just send her to school, either.

http://www.rainn.org...

Something illegal is illegal. There are no if's, and's, or but's about it. What I'm trying to get you to understand is just that. At this point in time, you accept abortion ONLY if the woman is in a life-threatening circumstance. That does not mean you think it should be illegal, it just means you only think it should be used for one option. If abortion were illegal, the doctors couldn't just request the government let them slide by the law to save this woman's life. By that time, she'd be dead anyway. If you have an abortion at the right time, no harm will come to you or the fetus. I do agree with you to a certain extent. Abortion is the killing of a baby, once it reaches five weeks. According to Baby Center, at five weeks, all the parts of the baby begin to form. Before that, there is only cells, which I do not have a problem with aborting if their are horrible circumstances involved.

http://www.babycenter.com...
Debate Round No. 3
nohandlebars

Con

Intending a battle? If you truly wanted understanding of my points, you would have asked, not stated your own.

1) you haven't explained from round 1 how science proves murder otherwise.

2) Sexual assault and rape are different, depending on the state. So 237,868 females are not all raped. Sometimes the assaulter uses protection, sometimes girls are on birth control, sometimes the egg isn't fertilized, and sometimes females lose the baby along the way. Don't get me wrong, the numbers are heart breaking. But also, you need to put in different factors.

3) "Even if a teen could later put the baby up for adoption the baby would have already been exposed to dangerous conditions."
How so? Please list a VAILD source to this.

4) Yes. I'd make suffer through pregnancy. There may be pain, but its not worth ending a life for. and p.s somebody do not experience the pain of labor. There's drugs and C-sections, so it's not all pain. Yeah, I can't send her to school, but there are tutors, that many people use, or home-schooling.

5) 'Something is illegal is illegal' There are plenty of it's, and's or but's in laws. Are you kidding me? If there weren't, we wouldn't have laws. How do you think court cases come about? Because there is criteria for a law.

6) 'if abortion were illegal, the doctors couldn't just request the government let them slide by the law to save her life.'
I'm so confused by this. As you said, it would be used for one option. Why would the government have to let them slide by the law to save her life, when it IS the law saving her life. Is that what your saying?
Also, if this was true that doctors had to ask permission to abort the baby, then we'd be doing it with every abortion, and since it takes so long that she'd be dead anyway, then we would have no babies being aborted and they'd be all born.

Also, doctors don't have to ask permission. They simply tell the government. It's the government consulting with the doctors to make sure that there is no other way. At least, I think this is how it runs. If not, please correct me.

7) Hmm...I'm not sure what exactly counts in determining when the baby is alive. I'm not sure if it is 5 weeks, or 18-21 days when the heart starts to beat.

The cells are still life. How is it 'only cells' ? We are only cells. So would you not have a problem with killing any other human being?
queeng

Pro

1) The debate on when life begins has been worldwide since before we even knew what it was. Many people have many different views on when this happens. What I'm saying is not that science has proved when life begins, but it has proved some basic guidelines for an idea of it. For example:

At Or Near Birth: Which is measured by fetal viability outside the mother's body. Meaning around a month or few weeks before the due date of the pregnancy.

Neurological View: Which is measured by brainwave criteria. Meaning life begins when a distinct EEG pattern can be detected, about 24 to 27 weeks. There is a strong argument between scientists that the recognizable EEG patterns produced by a mature brain is a defining characteristic of humanity. Therefore, the moment that a developing fetus first exhibits a consistent EEG pattern is indicative of the beginning of human life. It is from this point and onward during development that the fetus is capable of the type of mental activity associated with humanity.

Embryologic View: Which is when the embryo undergoes gastrulation, and twinning is no longer possible. Gastrulation commences at the beginning of the third week of pregnancy, when the zygote, now known as an embryo is implanted into the uterus of the mother. this occurs about 12 days into development. The philosophers who support this position argue that there is a difference between a human individual and a human person. A zygote is both human and numerically single and thus a human individual. However, because individuality is not certain until implantation is complete, and because individuality is a necessary condition of personhood, the zygote is not yet a human person.

http://www.thesurvivaldoctor.com...
science.jburroughs.org/mbahe/BioEthics/.../Whendoeshumanlifebegin.pdf

2) Rape: Nonconsensual sexual penetration of an individual, obtained by force or threat, or in cases in which the victim is not capable of consent.

Sexual Assault: The forcible perpetration of an act of sexual contact on the body of another person, male or female, without his or her consent.

They are basically the same thing and sometimes does not cover all of the 237,868 that are sexually abused. What about the woman that aren't as lucky as the others and do end up pregnant? Why would they want a baby to constantly remind them of what they've been through?

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com...
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com... assault

3) Adolescent pregnancies have many risk factors for their babies.

Weight Gain: They are less likely to gain adequate weight during their pregnancy, leading to low birth weight, which is associated with several infant and childhood disorders and a higher rate of infant mortality. Low-birth weight babies are more likely to have organs that are not fully developed, which can result in complications, such as bleeding in the brain, respiratory distress syndrome, and intestinal problems.

Nutrition: They have a higher rate of poor eating habits than older women and are less likely to take recommended daily vitamins to maintain adequate nutrition during pregnancy. Teens also are more likely to smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, or take drugs during pregnancy, which can cause health problems for the baby.

Prenatal Care: They receive regular prenatal care less often than older women. Prenatal care is essential for monitoring the growth of the fetus and the health of the mother. Medical professionals provide important information about good nutrition and about other ways to ensure a healthy pregnancy. According to the American Medical Association, babies born to women who do not have regular prenatal care are 4 times more likely to die before the age of 1 year.

After Affects: These children are less likely to receive proper nutrition, health care, and cognitive and social stimulation. As a result, they are at risk for lower academic achievement. They also are at increased risk for abuse and neglect. Boys born to teen mothers are 13% more likely to be arrested or jailed later in life, and girls are 22% more likely to become teen mothers themselves.

http://www.healthcommunities.com...

4) During pregnancy, women go through many things such as fatigue, lightheadedness, nausea, frequent urination, and swollen abdomen. During pregnancy, adolescents have a much higher risk of severe medical conditions such as placenta previa, pregnancy-induced hypertension, premature delivery, anemia, and toxemia. Adolescent mothers are about 2 years behind in their age group for completing their education. Women who have a baby in their teen years are more likely to live in poverty and have another baby within 2 years of their first child.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov...

5) In this explanation, I will go back to my previous statement. You accept abortion ONLY if the woman is in a life-threatening circumstance. That does not mean you think it should be illegal, it just means you only think it should be used for one option.

6) 'If abortion were illegal, the doctors couldn't just request the government let them slide by the law to save her life.'

In saying this, I was giving an example of if abortion were illegal. If it were against the law, there would be no abortions, period. If abortion were to be legal just under life threatening circumstances (which is your case), then it would be the law saving her life.

7) My first point discusses some ideas on when life begins, but the heart starts to beat 18 days from conception, and by 21 days the heart is pumping blood through a closed circulatory system. This link also has some other milestones of development: http://prolifeaction.org...

http://prolifeaction.org...

Overall in conclusion to this debate, my stance will be pro-choice. Pro-Choice does not mean that I fully support abortions because I don't. I believe that if you slip up one night and then decide that you don't want a baby after all, then it is your responsibility to care for this child. Pro-Choice gives the option of choice. The choice that under certain circumstances a baby shouldn't be in the picture, the choice to start fresh and carry on with the life you dreamed for yourself. I believe that if you catch this pregnancy early, there will be no harm to this baby through an abortion. I'd like to thank my opponent for this very interesting debate and all the people who commented. Happy Holidays.
Debate Round No. 4
nohandlebars

Con

1) I'm not even bothering to read your argument. As in the comments, it doesn't matter. If that babies heart doesn't beat at a certain time, it will anyone.

2) NO THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. If you are trying to prove a point, that the baby will remind them of this terrible horrific act, and that it's so dramatizing that they would kill an infant, don't use the word 'basically' Rape, in unconsented sex. Sexual assault, is anything other than that, consented.

What does the baby have to do with the rape? It's something what happen because of it. Even if the baby has been taken away from the equtation, rape still has happened. Why should we take away life from a baby that doesn't even know what she/he had been conceived out of? It's not the babies fault, and if you want to forget that's not the way to do it.

3)Why do I care about all the things that could happen to a child? The baby could have problems, but 1) that is still worth having a life 2) Many babies have problems, so are you saying to abort all of them?

As I've said before, unless the mother's life is at risk, you're third paragraph has no relevance to this debate at all.

4) Unless a mother's life is at risk, your point is invalid. So you get lightheaded, does them mean its ok to kill? Oh, I have arthritis, I guess I'm going to slaughter this 6 year old.

5) Um, since you lack intelligence I'm going to explain something to you. If this abortion law were to go through, it would be illegal under certain circumstances. But I yes your kiddie words still work.

In a comment, it said that I should use pro choice vs pro life to my advange. I think, if not I'm just going to make a point.

Pro choice is the freedom in which women have to do with their body. Which I totally support. Women seem to think that men take away a lot of their rights (different topic) But in fact I think that everybody should be able to do what they want with their bodies. Tattoos, piercings, whatever. I mean, legally they have to be at a certain age, but they still have that freedom.

Pro life is the choice that the babies life is most important. This is against abortion. I agree with this. People seem to think that this is taking away their freedom. If you have sex, a risk you take is getting pregnant. You try to prevent it with condoms, times, pills etc...but that risk is always there. People don't seem to understand that having sex means there's always a chance to get pregnant. Sometimes I wish could I post one of those yellow and black signs that say "WARNING: Could get pregnant." But I can't. That's something people should know, and that's what they do know. If you don't want to get pregnant, that's your choice. If you DO want to get pregnant, that's your choice. That's your freedom. But don't fight fire with fire. We have the freedom to do what we want with our bodies, to have sex with whomever, whenever. But the consequences of that freedom aren't anybody's fault but your own. It's not an excuse to take a life because somebody was stupid or because it was 1 in 100 chance. Taking a life is only excusable if your declared mental insane. Abortion, killing unborn babies if continued to be legal, women would abuse it as a choice of protection. If you are raped, I'm truly sorry. But that is no excuse to take away a life. There are different ways to continue through life with the same

Often, anti abortion people bring up the point of the babies right. 9th amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Our rights include life. Unborn babies -are life, and alive- have the right to purse "life, liberty and happiness" as same everybody, same as women. Women have that choice with their bodies, they DO have that freedom, until it infringes on somebody else's right.
queeng

Pro

If my opponent had her way, rape victims would be forced to carry the child of their abuser.

If my opponent had her way, children would be forced to carry a child and put themselves and the baby at risk.

My opponent failed to disprove any of my statements with facts.

My opponent failed to argue with anything other than opinion on one single case.

My opponent was disrespectful throughout this debate not just to me but to commentators as well.

Quite frankly, I have nothing else to say. I have debated my point and I thank you for your time.
Debate Round No. 5
36 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by PeriodicPatriot 2 years ago
PeriodicPatriot
With queeng winning (34 points) and nohandlebars losing (0 points), it's obvious why voters had it that way.
Posted by DudeStop 2 years ago
DudeStop
The first day of your life is when you're born. Not when your mom and dad realize the condom snapped.
It is not always morally wrong to kill an innocent human being. Human life actually begins prior to conception, because each sperm and egg cell is a living thing. It is more relevant to discuss when sentience, or self-awareness, begins.
Posted by nohandlebars 2 years ago
nohandlebars
I'm sorry my brother got into my account and did some things. We have the same opinion but not exactly.

He thinks that life is determined by the heartbeat/brain but I don't.

When the egg is fertilized, that's when the baby is alive. It has a cell, just is going through the cell process as soon as its made, and it has all the chromosomes it needs and is considered human. If the cell is going through the cell cycle, he/she is alive.

So I'm very sorry for my brother
Posted by DudeStop 2 years ago
DudeStop
"Why is what the fetus develops into, discounted? Why does it matter if the heartbeat starts today or tomorrow? The heart beat will still happen, will it not?
If I take a rake to a garden you just planted, you gunna be mad bro?"

Saying "It will eventually be alive" is a stupid argument. It's the same as me going to a bar, claiming I will some say be 21, and then ordering a drink. We need to have current value, not the future one. A potential baby is not exactly a baby.
Posted by a-priori 2 years ago
a-priori
Ok pro seriously needs to look up some laws and statutes. You are getting stuck on the grammar. She means (and has been telling you) "it is illegal to perform abortion unless it is to save the mother's life."
Posted by nohandlebars 2 years ago
nohandlebars
thanks
Posted by PeriodicPatriot 2 years ago
PeriodicPatriot
CONDUCT: Both had unbearable conducted as both said undelighted remarks. Obvious reasons.

SOURCES: As stated on DDO guidelines to debates, Sources mean how much good quality and better interpretation to the topic, not how much work is cited, points go to pro.

ARGUMENTS: Con's arguments were more attacks than arguments. Sorry for offending you con, bit I am speaking the truth, not opinions

SPELLING/GRAMMAR: Both did a nice job of spelling and grammar.
Posted by nohandlebars 2 years ago
nohandlebars
"I also think in that same round your 5th and 6th were contradicting.."
Alevan what 5th and 6th do you mean?
Posted by alevan 2 years ago
alevan
A note to both debaters.

I will start with Con

The resolution as you stated is that all abortion should be illegal unless endangering the mothers life. Now that is not necessarily an easy point to defend. I want you to realize first of all that the Pro is not "Pro-Abortion" they just believe it's not your, my and especially not the governments choice to decide whether or not an expectant mother can or cannot have an abortion. Also counter productively you didn't really give any evidence just a lot of assertions and they could be strong arguments with the right merits. I think you need to work on your format and organization a little bit and make sure you're able to provide some sort of methodology. If it were a rating out of 30 I'd give you a 24

Pro:
I think you take the stance of a rising majority of Americans. I think you did a good job structuring. Your arguments however some of your contentions were a little lacking of impact. Specifically in round 4 your 4th was not really stating an overwhelming impact because abortion often leads to suffering, and in many cases it's worse. I also think in that same round your 5th and 6th were contradicting, I understood why but not sure most people will understand. I don't know what the character limit was but try to draw it and relate it back to resolution a little better. Overall I thought you did well I'd give you a 27 on the same scale as I rated Con.

Pro wins
Posted by nohandlebars 2 years ago
nohandlebars
because you keep saying different things and I simply want you to help me to understand your point of views
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by nhenna 2 years ago
nhenna
nohandlebarsqueengTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct- Con was very insulting throughout the debate so conduct goes to Pro Spelling and Grammar- Con made various grammar mistakes Arguments- Con only answered with opinions and even refused to read Pro's arguments Sources- Con failed to use any sources or factual information. Pro utilized her sources well. My vote goes to Pro.
Vote Placed by alevan 2 years ago
alevan
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Reasons for voting decision: Notes to debaters in comments
Vote Placed by ChrisF 2 years ago
ChrisF
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Reasons for voting decision: Con failed to provide a single source, as well as failing to back up any of their arguments with solid facts. Also, Con seemed to have very poor conduct throughout the debate.
Vote Placed by PeriodicPatriot 2 years ago
PeriodicPatriot
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Reasons for voting decision: See comments
Vote Placed by iamanatheistandthisiswhy 2 years ago
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
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Reasons for voting decision: I think Con had very poor behavior throughout the debate and as such I award Pro conduct points. The fact that Pro cited sources warrants allocation of the sources points, I just wish Con had read them. Con arguments were p attacks on Pro often, with even statements like I will not read your arguments. This shows Con did not take the debate seriously and was making stuff up while Pro actually presented logical and sourced arguments.
Vote Placed by Tophatdoc 2 years ago
Tophatdoc
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Reasons for voting decision: Con failed to provide any sources. Both sides used appeal to emotion multiple times. But Pro actually provided an argument versus Con who spouted opinion. This is why I gave the debate to Pro. The source point goes to Pro. Neither side receives the conduct point due to snide remarks made in the opening rounds of the debate. Then there were other snarky statements made throughout the debate that was unnecessary on both sides. By the end of the debate it was just disgusting. Good luck to you both in future debates.
Vote Placed by KingDebater 2 years ago
KingDebater
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro had better arguments backed up by sources, and con didn't refute them, which was noted by pro.