The Instigator
phantom14450
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Complicated_Mind
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points

abortion

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Complicated_Mind
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/10/2014 Category: Health
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 782 times Debate No: 52113
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (18)
Votes (2)

 

phantom14450

Con

abortion is wrong. and this is how ill prove it!
1- have you ever killed somebody? i hope you all say no. and you know why you didnt kill anybody. its wrong, its evil, and its against the laiw. so wy isnt abortion wrong? its just killing the person before he/she is born. ive heard people say," it isnt wrong to kill it," well guess what! it is a human being not a it... it is not some foreign alien. it is your child that you are murdering. question, if ou would abort it why did you even have it in the first place? you could do millions of things to stop it. of course you could have a good excuse. like my husband left me with the child. well, just becuase he left doesnt mean you make your child die. you cant kill someone just because your in pain. it isnt the childs problem. they will have a life, and you just ruined it for them. shame. it is wrong, i know you readers know it. abortion is another way of saying," i am sad, i am a bad person, i dont want this thing." so dont get a abortion.. its sooo wrong.
Complicated_Mind

Pro

Preface

I would like to thank my opponent for giving me the opportunity to debate such a controversial topic with her. In all honesty, I was reluctant to accept this debate as I seem to only debate 'big issues' which can get a tad boring after a certain amount, however I haven't debated in rougly two months, so I figure it's about time I get back into the game, yes? I usually assume that first round is acceptance, however my opponent has already made her opening arguments. Her opening arguments were quite brief, so I will keep mine to a minimal as well. I will go far more into depth in the following round.



Notes/Tips

Some advice I'd like to give my opponent is the following: don't create debates where instigators are con and the contenders are pro. It is meant to be the other way around so I'd suggest rephrasing for your next debate. It makes the decision on who has burden of proof confusing. For now I will have to assume it is shared.



Opening Statements

In round two I am going to argue that abortion should be permitted in cases where the mother's life is at risk, where the baby will undoubtedly have major physical and/or mental handicaps, and before the fetus develops consciousness and the capacity to feel pain. Another key argument I will make is that the fetus cannot make rational choices, so it is up to the mother, who can make rational choices, to decide the baby's fate before consciousness and brain activity sets into the fetus.


I will hand the debate back to my opponent and I would once again like to thank her for instigating this debate. I look forward to a cordial and insightful debate.
Debate Round No. 1
phantom14450

Con

1- sorry, im am new to this... 1 debate!
2- i am a boy..
back to the debate
here is a study done by docters on how many abortions are done-Total number of abortions in the U.S. 1973-2011: 54.5 million+

234 abortions per 1,000 live births (according to the Centers for Disease Control)
Abortions per year: 1.2 million
Abortions per day: 3,288
Abortions per hour: 137
9 abortions every 4 minutes
1 abortion every 26 seconds
----------------------------------------------------------
and when you said it is up to the mother for the abortion. so it is ok to have a abortion( killing you baby) before he/she is born. yet after he/she is born it is not ok?
so the mother can just decide to kill there baby. i dont think that is right.
Complicated_Mind

Pro

My Contentions

I will make three unique contentions of my own which my opponent is supposed to refute. It will revolve around three ideas: illegal abortions, the life of the mother, and mental and/or physical handicaps of the baby.


CI: The Life of the Mother

It is widely agreed all around that the life of the mother should be held to a higher standard than the unborn baby for a plethora of reasons. First and foremost, in cases where the life of the mother is at risk, there is a large chance that the baby will simply die along with the mother, so in predetermined circumstances where it is deemed likely that the baby will put the mother's life at risk, it would simply be best to abort the baby, no matter the stage of pregnancy, as aborting the fetus will likely save the mother's life. The baby will die anyway, and that will simply pile on health risks that can take the mother's life too.

Some would probably ask why the mother's life is so preferable to the baby's. Well, I believe that there are two key reasons, which I will state below.


A.
The mother is a functional, rational, breathing, thinking human being who has already started her life. In 99% of cases she is capable of making logical decisions, can feel pain, and can provide the life's necessities without much help. (She can feed herself, clothe herself, walk herself, etc.). The baby hasn't started doing any of this yet. In extreme cases such as when the mother's life is put in jeopardy, the baby will likely die before any of this could be said about them, and, often times, they will take the rational, breathing, thinking mother with them.

B. It is pretty likely that the mother will have the ability to have more babies that are healthy and will be born without putting any lives in danger. If the mother had two or three children after the initial abortion that could've killed her (if she hadn't gotten it), then in the end, multiple lives were saved at the cost of having an abortion.


CII: Mental and/or Physical Handicaps

I am not talking about a kid being crippled or having down's syndrome, nor am I talking about kids with things like cystic fibrosis, and such illnesses. I am talking about when a person has limbs that are underdeveloped and they have no consciousness to begin with, and they are simply a financial burden to the family. And yes, unfortunately, there are babies born with no consciousness and they never know that their alive. One top of that, it's common that they are born with no arms and no legs, or their missing a part of his/her brain. It's fairly sad to see and it's best to spare the family the hardship of the countless medical bills and emotional trauma. In some cases the child feels helpless pain their entire life and it's terrible to see. I hope this doesn't make me come off as cold.


CIII: Illegal Abortions

If abortion were a crime, people would simply find ways to do it unprofessionally and many times the baby will simply be permanently messed up from the physical trauma of the attempted abortion. Often times victims of failed abortions suffer a lot in life, and allowing professional abortions regulated by the government would spare much hardship. Take prostitution for example. Where it is legalized and regulated by the government, there are virtually no STDs and many prostitutes give their money to their pimps or they could potentially be killed. In places where prostitution is legalized none of this happens because of it's legalization. Keeping abortion a crime will only make things worse.


Rebuttals

I will now rebut and refute my opponent's arguments he has made thus far.


RI: How is killing a fetus different from killing a baby

This is mostly refuted in my earlier contentions. A fetus cannot feel pain in the early states of pregnancy, cannot make rational choices, does not (in early stages) have consciousness etc. etc. Look at my earlier contentions if you are not satisfied that I have already refuted this.

In conclusion I have explained why the mother's life is more important that the fetuses, and that in cases where the mother's life is put at risk abortion should be an open option, I have explained why it would be morally wrong to allow some babies who have no consciousness and barely any brain activity to suffer through the hardships they will face in life, I have explained that illegal abortions will occur and the results will be disastrous if it is not regulated by the government, and I have refuted my opponent's fetus versus baby contention.


One Last Tip for my Opponent

It's preferable that you don't make your titles so vague. I made the mistake of doing this in my first few debates and it's a regrettable thing to do. Trolls can play semantic games, and veterans can take advantage of your vague terms. So instead of simply putting the title 'abortion' you should have probably made it something more like: “Abortion should never be permitted in any case in the United States” or “Abortion should never be permitted in most cases in the United States” (then you could state the rare exceptions in the first round). In either of these you would be pro, which an instigator should be. Just trying to help. Because of the vague title I did all of this in the assumption that you were talking about all cases of abortion in general.

With all of that said I hand this back to my opponent. I look forward to it.

Debate Round No. 2
phantom14450

Con

hm. thank for the tips-
but with the fetus, you said that some babies are born with no lims and some dont even know there alive. well. if a person who doesnt know there alive, but is age 42, is it ok to kill them? no. it is still wrong. as seeing this is the 3rd round. i give thanks for this doing this debate with me. i know i dont have a strong argument, but i am new. thanks for debating with me!
Complicated_Mind

Pro

My post this round will be EXTREMELY short because my opponent hasn't given me much to respond to. My last rebuttal in this debate will be my opponent's contention regarding an adult who has no limbs and/or consciousness should be killed. This is a completely different argument than that of abortion. I'm arguing that it's possible to determine if someone will end up like that when they are still in the womb. If they are yet to be born and they will never develop consciousness it's best to put them out of their misery. I did NOT and will NOT endorse killing a LEGAL person that has already been BORN regardless of consciousness.

Since my argument of mental and physical deficiencies was based around morality it was definitely my weakest contention. My illegal abortions and the life of the mother arguments were far stronger, so I understand my opponent's suspicion of the deficiency argument.

I would like to thank my opponent one last time for the debate. :) It was fun.

Note that I wrote this last round in my iPad so please excuse the rushed fashion that this was written in and any sloppiness regarding sentence structure and grammar.

SOURCES

http://www.slate.com...

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com...

http://www.alternet.org...

http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org...
Debate Round No. 3
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Complicated_Mind 2 years ago
Complicated_Mind
@phantom14450: It's perfectly fine. Just try to find a good debater (RoyLatham, bluesteel, bsh1, thett3, Mikal etc.) and try to follow their example in debating. Click on debates and on the top right you'll see something that says "debate leaderboard" click on it, and see how the people there format their debates.
Posted by phantom14450 2 years ago
phantom14450
ya... i really need to learn
Posted by Complicated_Mind 2 years ago
Complicated_Mind
@SPYDIR: Thank you for the compliment, it means a lot. :) when you say my last argument, I'm assuming y mean the illegal abortions?

Considering my opponent's short response I suppose I have time to post my final argument much earlier than I anticipated. It may take a few mines because I must organize my sources.
Posted by phantom14450 2 years ago
phantom14450
yep. good debate..
Posted by SPYDIR 2 years ago
SPYDIR
btw, I think that your last argument was great pro, but declan, If you want pointers on how to refute them, you can ask me. pro, I would love to see your sources, so that I may read them in context.

One last tip, I try to make all that I do in debates off the top of my head in order to make sure that I don't have to list sources, I try to become an expert on both sides, so I can fully explain how my opponet went wrong. Oh, and dex, you can qoute many scripture verses as well, hint, psalms,
Posted by Complicated_Mind 2 years ago
Complicated_Mind
Oh, and thanks for the friend request. :)
Posted by Complicated_Mind 2 years ago
Complicated_Mind
I have to take a break from all of this and run some errands. My apologies for the inconvenience but I will not be able to post in the final round until late my time. I will post the final round tonight and the voting period should start before tomorrow. I would like to thank my opponent for the debate!
Posted by SPYDIR 2 years ago
SPYDIR
good man
or as bill nye would say, a reasonable man.. yet another ad hominem comment... xD
Posted by Complicated_Mind 2 years ago
Complicated_Mind
Can't believe I wrote all that in like twenty minutes. O.O It seems I forgot to post my sources. -.-

I will have to take care of that in round three.
Posted by SPYDIR 2 years ago
SPYDIR
just check your spelling before you press review.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
phantom14450Complicated_MindTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's only argument was "abortions are wrong" pro gave many reasons to doubt this blanket statement.
Vote Placed by iamanatheistandthisiswhy 2 years ago
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
phantom14450Complicated_MindTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro wins the debate for presenting reasoned arguments which did not get rebutted by Con. Additionally, Pro rebutted all Cons arguments, and pointed out problems with the arguments i.e. an adult with no arms is not a fetus with no arms. Spelling and Grammar goes to Pro, as Con made multiple errors that could have been easily avoided using a spell checker.