The Instigator
moonshine311111
Con (against)
Losing
7 Points
The Contender
TheSkeptic
Pro (for)
Winning
14 Points

abortion

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/13/2009 Category: Politics
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 820 times Debate No: 9484
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (3)

 

moonshine311111

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for agreeing to debate me once again. Hopefully I'll win this debate. I would like to start off by saying I've been searching for someone just as fun too debate as you, and I couldn't. Hopefully this will be a good, fun debate and may the best man win. Without further adieu let the debate begin.

Abortion: harmless joyful procedure or cold blooded murder. I will begin by using the constitution to support my reasoning that abortion is unjust murder. And I will also use science to support my reasoning.

Constitution: I respect the men who wrote the constitution. We both knew they didn't know of "abortion" back then, but what if they did. Would they support the burning and poisoning of an innocent baby. At this point your probably thinking fetuses aren't babies, well I would have to rebute you my good sir. Fetus: http://en.wikipedia.org...(biology). http://en.wikipedia.org.... These two links are important for my rebuttal. Last debate I plagorized and I feel awful for it, so now I'm only gonna use links and context to help me in a rebuttal. Now, to explain my rebuttal. Let's look at the first link. It states that a fetus is the stage between embryo and birth, but in fact it never says that a fetus is not a baby. I have a question for you, do you think a fetus feels pain? It has developing nerve cells. If it has nerve cells then why shouldn't it feel pain? Onto the second link. The more important of the two links. "In 1983, the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland, also known as the "Pro-Life Amendment," was added to the Constitution of The Republic of Ireland by popular referendum. It recognizes "the right to life of the unborn"." This seems like a pretty important amendment, does it not? Why would people go out of their way to create such an important amendment, if they know it would start heated debates, like this very debate. Take a couple of minutes too think about this amendment. That is my opening arguement, thanks for taking the time to read it.
TheSkeptic

Pro

I thank my opponent for challenging me to this debate; I hope this debate goes well.

My opponent has definitely improved from our last two debates; unfortunately, my opponent's entire argument misses the point of the abortion debate. It is not a constitutional or a scientific problem (though these disciplines are intertwined with answering the issue of abortion), but rather a philosophical one: what determines personhood. A person is a morally and legally relevant entity, and the question becomes whether or not a fetus is a person. If it's a person, then killing it would result in murder and I have no desire to argue in favor of murder. However, if it's proven that a fetus is not a person, then killing it would not result in murder and thus give me a steady foundation to stand upon - unless my opponent is against the termination of any kind of life in any circumstance, which I doubt.

So let's examine his two argument and see how they fare:

====================
Constitutional argument against abortion
====================

"I respect the men who wrote the constitution...Would they support the burning and poisoning of an innocent baby."

----> I could care less about what the Founding Fathers thought about abortion. This is a logical fallacy commonly known as an appeal to authority; the Founding Fathers are not overflowing resources of knowledge. And while their opinions and beliefs should be held in high regard concerning politics (namely the founding of our nation), I'd doubt their authority concerning philosophy of ethics. Even then, saying you have a big hotshot name supporting a certain belief gives you little, if any, credit for proving that belief.

"It states that a fetus is the stage between embryo and birth, but in fact it never says that a fetus is not a baby."

----> This is another logical fallacy, and a simple scientific error. The fallacy here is similar to the argument from silence[1], which states that just because someone hasn't responded to an argument or claim doesn't mean that argument/claim is true. In context, you are inferring from the observation that just because Wikipedia doesn't say fetus' aren't babies, then the inverse must be true, that fetus' are babies. This is obviously false. Furthermore, a simple scientific fact will reveal that babies are infants and/or newborn children[2], meaning it's an organism that is AFTER birth. Finally, you have no philosophical reasoning for demonstrating why it should matter that killing babies is wrong - just because they are cute does not necessarily mean they are persons.

"I have a question for you, do you think a fetus feels pain?"

----> Only in the last trimester, since the necessary nerve pathways have finally formed (just having the receptors does you no good, you need something to receive the information). Even then, just because they feel pain doesn't matter - we kill animals all the time just for food. As Puck states in the comment sections, this would damn you to vegetarianism. If you want to defend the doctrine that sentient beings are persons, then go ahead - but in my second round I'll be sure to pounce on that.

"This seems like a pretty important amendment, does it not? Why would people go out of their way to create such an important amendment, if they know it would start heated debates, like this very debate."

----> This is yet another very common logical fallacy: the appeal to popularity. Just because most people approve of X does not make X true, reality is not dependent on the minds of people (unless you want to argue for that, which would be fun).

====================
Conclusion and determinant of personhood
====================

I've refuted what I perceive to be very weak arguments. Since I'm done with those, I will present shortly why I argue for abortion. Basically, I will use consciousness, more or less, as the deciding factor for determining who is a person. This is obviously a debatable point, so I'll leave further discussion for the next round, seeing as we have 5 rounds.

---References---
1. http://skepticwiki.org...
2. http://dictionary.reference.com...
Debate Round No. 1
moonshine311111

Con

moonshine311111 forfeited this round.
TheSkeptic

Pro

A forfeit...
Debate Round No. 2
moonshine311111

Con

moonshine311111 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
moonshine311111

Con

moonshine311111 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
moonshine311111

Con

moonshine311111 forfeited this round.
TheSkeptic

Pro

I had high hopes for this debate, and I'm glad to see moonshine has improved from his last debates with me. However, he has once again given me a slew of forfeits - the winner is clear.
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Yvette 6 years ago
Yvette
Moonshine, forfeiting the debate is forfeiting the debate. How can you vote for yourself after that?
Posted by Alex 7 years ago
Alex
Nice rematch moonshine...
Posted by Puck 7 years ago
Puck
Vegetarian, moonshine311111?
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Yvette 6 years ago
Yvette
moonshine311111TheSkepticTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by moonshine311111 6 years ago
moonshine311111
moonshine311111TheSkepticTied
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Vote Placed by TheSkeptic 7 years ago
TheSkeptic
moonshine311111TheSkepticTied
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Total points awarded:07