abortionist tiller should have been shot... from a prolife perspective
Luhra (Tivis) Warren, a former Tiller employee, wrote the following:
"I was required to falsify the medical records. But not just that, related to that, I was required to lie to the women over the phone. And the way he'd explain it to me was, without coming right out and saying it, these are really third trimester abortions, but we're going to tell them they're only in the second trimester. They would say, well, I've already had a sonogram, and my bpd was 7.8 or 8.3 or whatever. He said, when they tell you that, don't turn them away as being too far along. Tell them to come in, and we'll do our own sonogram, and it will show they're not that far along. Tell them that sonogram reading is an art, not a science. He explained to me that the bpd is a measurement of the angle of the baby's head, where at that angle, the baby's head is roughly egg-shaped. The usual way that you measure the bpd is from the top of the egg to the bottom of the egg, which is at the widest point. But we measure it from side to side, at the narrowest point." from Celebrate Life Sept/Oct 1994 "Where is the Real Violence?"
'late term abortion, cause the mom says she had too many kids'
"Jessica speaks out"
I wanted to say that I was a "patient" if you will of Dr. Tiller back in . I was married at the time & had just had my [4th] child very recently & had become pregnant again as my husband didn't want to wait. Anyway, we decided having 2 babies under 1 year old was not going to work for us with  children total, so after thinking about it we decided upon an abortion though it was painful to think about.
Well unfortunately I chose to use Dr. Tiller. We set up our appointment and this was a late term abortion by the time they got me in. I'm thinking now this was on purpose, its as if he likes doing them later term. I was I believe 26 weeks along which is pretty far in my book, but anyway.
First day was taking blood, sonogram to see exactly how far along I was, etc... which they wouldn't let me see the sonogram photo when I asked. They then gave me the shot into my cervix to insert the laminaria pack, which is the worst pain I have EVER to this day had in my life!! Don't think that was normal. I was then told to go back to the motel room (we were from another town) and be there at 10:00 am the next morning for the abortion.
Well I awoke around 7:00 am and from what I can figure was in FULL BLOWN labor. I was having contractions like I did with my other  children while in labor. I was feeling an urge to push even which was very odd, but I was in labor & mostly in pain. My husband FINALLY reached a nurse there (said it was a 24 hr number yet no one answered). They told me it was MY fault and that I was to be at the clinic at 6:00 am... yet the paper they gave me said 10:00 am and I was told 10:00 am.
Anyway... we got to the clinic, they didn't seem to even care that I was in so much pain. They took their time getting my IV in my arm & finally got me some pain medicine. There were about 5 other girls in this room with me (like a small waiting room with beds, etc...) and they all had already had their abortions done. I was last for that part of the morning. I'm guessing because I was farthest along. They all literally looked like zombies just lying there. It was creepy. I was not allowed to have my husband come back to see me or comfort me. Finally it was my turn. I was taken in & given a drug to almost knock me out. It's one where they say you don't remember things, but I do. I can remember Tiller half-delivering my baby, jabbing the scissors into his head, & killing him. Then just kind of throwing him to the side and finishing up.
When leaving there, they don't escort you out or anything. I could barely walk... it was about 2 degrees with lots of snow on the ground and protesters outside pounding on our car as we tried to leave.
The power went out IN THE MIDDLE of my abortion. It was only off about 5 minutes, but how safe does that make you feel? Then my husband was out front freaking out knowing I was back there & of course they wouldn't let him see me, didn't answer his questions or anything.
Anyway I'm sorry to go on. It's very upsetting. The worst part of this ordeal is ever since having this done, I have had NOTHING but problems with my female parts. I have had cervical dysplasia, which is bad cells in your cervix that require many painful treatments. I have pain with sex, which never happened before and just have general hard core cramping on a daily basis. I have doctor statements telling me my abortion caused the problems I now have.
I wanted to share my story. I'm glad your getting the word out about how horrible a man he is. I'm not saying I'm not to blame as well. I chose to do this, but I was told it wouldn't be a bad experience... it would be something that would be easy for me to do & have to go through. But instead, its been nothing but trouble since the day I had it done
he did them late term for trivial reaSONS...
[Tiller gave out a video called] "Philosophies and techniques of late term abortion services at Women's Health Care Services". In this video, Tiller talks openly about the reasons women come to Wichita for late-term abortion which include "occupational issues" and "financial issues".
Dr. Paul McHugh is a Professor of Psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. McHugh was hired by the then-Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline to review some of Tiller's records. McHugh said the records show Tiller performed abortions for trivial reasons. One woman even said she was having a late-term, abortion because she wanted to go to a rock concert. Click here to see Dr. McHugh's interview in Lenexa, Kansas on June 11, 2007.
political and legal process werent working.... while his death has caused less death
Study weighs threats' effects on abortion providers
BY DAVID GOLDSTEIN
WASHINGTON � An abortion rights group has found that doctors and clinics in six states, including Missouri, that perform abortions "are routinely targeted" for legal and physical harassment, including death threats.
The result, according to a study by the Center for Reproductive Rights � an international legal advocacy group � is that women seeking to terminate pregnancies face a dwindling supply of providers as threats and intimidation take their toll.
others have shown abortions that can not occur bc his place closed
we have just war theory, and defense of others if death is imenent. i think just war applies. otherwise we have defense of others.... while noy literally immeint who cares? we donty have to be just whatever orhodoxy says. its the point that matters. desperate times desperate measures.... defense of others but not truly immenient, a death will soon occur. understood not normative law or ethics.... but bottomline, if u are gonna kill us very likely etc... u should die. otherwise wed just be sticking to tradiotion of whats been allowed and overlooking the point involved, and not be a little more unorthodox.
bottomline... what if they were killing two year olds and it was generally legal? not only that what if it was illegal at times and efftive to shoot the few two year old killers? poltics and law werent working.... what is the moral thing to do?
I thank Pro for making this debate. I tend to look at profiles of people before I debate, as a way to prepare for the style of argument I might expect. I notice Pro occupation is legal and given the salary range a low position at best. Being in the legal profession I am surprised with Pro's disregard for the legal system, even if she feels it has failed her cause.
The topics I most often debate on, pits me against creationist. Their biggest problem is PR. Pro-life has a similar problem.
The world changed with Roe v Wade. Gunning down doctors who provide abortions does not lend creditability to ones position. Neither does advocating for the death of doctors. Without creditability how can one be convincing? Without being convincing how can one win the people? Without winning the people how can one change laws?
Pro notes "war theory". War is about 2 things. Picking your battles and picking your tactics. The USA is a nation of laws. If Pro-lifers wish to win the war (overturn Roe V Wade) then they must be in for the long haul. This war is for public opinion. Murder is going to help the other side win the public. Killing abortion doctors is the wrong tactic and the wrong battle.
Pro started off with the claim "he did them illegally..."
I ask Pro to provide evidence of any court cases that show it was actually determined that he was doing these things illegally. If such evidence exists what was the sentence? Was it death?
The abortion debate is full of emotions. Emotions can motivate it can also cloud heads.
I must ask, the death of Dr. Tiller how many babies were potentially saved? I need you to put an actual number to this, even if only an estimate. This seems to be your reasoning to justify murder. This is a bad reason and I will help you understand why.
Now take that number and tell me, if that number of people were dying of a disease and the cure was in one fetus but the only way to save that number was if the fetus was destroyed. Would you also argue that one fetus should die in that case? Pro you are trying to swap lives, one death to save more, while believing that all live are valuable. I know my example is different, but it is still swapping lives. If you object to this argument tell me why. I plan to find one you can’t object to if need be.
Anyone who looks at my profile can see I am pro-choice. I believe abortions should be legal. I believe less abortions can be achieved without passing restrictive laws but rather by addressing the factors that lead people to abortion. My views are data driven. I support comprehensive sexual education over abstinence only because it is far superior at reducing teen pregnancy. Less pregnant teens means less teen abortions.
Sadly the pro-life movement has been about treating the symptom. I ask Pro to join me and let’s address the cause. Let us look at the data and find the reasons women get abortions and let’s fix that. The pro-life way doesn’t actually stop abortions they drive them underground and put more lives in danger. My way might take longer but my way means abortions clinic closing for lack of customers.
I ask Pro to join me and we can fight the cause of abortions because taking a life is never a good tactic. Even more so if you label yourself as being for life.
I am in the maintenance fields. When something breaks sure you can replace that part but if there are reasons that part is breaking and you don’t address the true cause well then the problem remains.
Join me let’s fix the true causes. From a prolife perspective Dr. Tiller should not have been shot because it hurts the creditability of the prolife cause.
you havent answered... do we use politics and law if people were out killing two year olds generally legally but sometimes illegally? even if those avenues arent working? even if we can save some lives by killing the killers? say no cause of credibility?
i showed witess testimony from his own workers and how he changed the measurements to determine viability... that means he did it illegally. what more do we need? it migght not have wroked in corut but who cares? if its obv ious enuff to all otherwise, lets take justice into our own hands. maybe theres loopholes or politics not getting him to be convicted etc. we have plenty of evidemce, and a bottmline that some abortions will not occur with his demise.
i cannot find teh article but there was one that said him speceficialy dying caused some abortions to not occur. his clinic closed too. i night guess 50 saved? who knows. 1 saved is enough
i dont know why your hypo has anything to do with here. do we kill a fetus if it saves many lives? this isnt a rote lives saved bottomline analysiss. tiller was a bad guy did them for trivial reasons and often illegally and without heart as Jessicas story above shows.(the prolife clinic next to his had a 90% success rate. tiller wouldnt recommend they go there first etc. he was in it for money, pure and simple. sure there might have been some rigteous thought about some of his work but clearly it couldnt have been that way all the time if he wasnt advocating reductions in abortion
im not against fixing social problems that cause abortions. but that dont mean we cant kill tiller etc too.
remember im not advocating all doctors just tiller, maybe carhart, and a select few.
im still waiting for you to address my 2 year old hypo, and pretend like your argumetnts against me could with any credibiluty be used in the 2 year old situation.
"as a practical matter most prolife people arent tiller killers etc..... so wed be wiping out a bad guy and reducing abortions while overall maintaining credibility."
maybe two year old arent connrctrd to the mom but at third trimester etc that makes no difference. she had plenty of time to abort earlier on. a third trimester and newborn are essentially only different by location only. sure we can make exceptions for he life of th mother... abd go after those who do it for triviak reasons or illegally per development as tiler etc did. the two year old hypo then is effectively exactly the same. ur failure to see that is y u are missin the point, losin this debate.
if some1 is more than likely a murderer and just didnt meet reasonable doubt or some technicality got them off.... they r stll law breakers and murderers. if OJ simpson suddenly admits murders but technicality says hes been tried already... ts only technicality and man law that are violated we can still take justice i our own hands
and what if a amurderer is about to strike agai> it might not be an immenient death as defese of others usually reqires but its close enough when theres so much certaity of the pending deaths
someone would be bad if they were defending two year olds to use that hypo? u know thats absurd too. ur only problem is u think an umbilical cord suddenly changes things. i disagree, and if u can see why, u aca see why ur argumetns sound absurd to me and how it wouldnt change m mind at all.
id focs on how two year olds are different if u wanted to make progress... but all ull establish are technicalities that meann nothing
So much of Pro's final post is unreadable. Best I can tell Pro agree suiside bombers have hurt the world's view of Muslims. Pro fails to ague that my comparison between Muslim terrorist hurting the Muslim cause and pro-life terrorist hurting the pro-life cause is invalid. As a result Pro has far from proved that "abortionist tiller should have been shot... from a prolife perspective"
It is my view that murdering doctors, advocating for the murdering of doctors, and failing to denounce those who advocate for the murdering of doctors is detrimental to the pro-life movement. As such Dr. Tiller should NOT have been shot... from a pro-life perspective.
Please vote Con.
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