The Instigator
vi_spex
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
1Credo
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

anything that is created has a beginning, and matter is eternal, thefore god is impossible

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
1Credo
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/27/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 529 times Debate No: 64037
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (0)
Votes (1)

 

1Credo

Con

1. Acceptance

I accept. I'd like to thank my opponent for creating this debate.

2. Burden of Proof

The responsibility for shouldering the burden of proof in this debate lies on my opponent. My opponent must justify his/her assertion that God is impossible.

3. Argument

My opponent's argument (taken from the resolution) can be summarized as follows:

P1) Anything that is created has a beginning
P2) Matter is eternal
C) Therefore, God is impossible

In order for the conclusion to be true, both premises must hold true. I agree with P1, that anything that is created has a beginning. However, I will take issue with P2. There is both scientific and philosophical evidence that leads to the conclusion that matter is not eternal, contrary to what my opponent claims in his argument.

In order to believe that matter is eternal, one must hold the view that the universe itself is eternal. This suggestion contradicts both science and reason. Let us start with the philosophical evidence against this proposition. Reason alone can show us that the idea of an eternal past (with an infinite number of past events) is impossible. The absurdity of infinity is shown in this example:
I begin with an infinite amount of coins. I subtract an infinite amount of coins from my original count. How many coins do I have left? (Answer = an infinite amount of coins)
I begin with an infinite amount of coins. I subtract three coins from my original count. How many coins do I have left? (Answer = an infinite amount of coins)
In both cases, I subtracted the same exact number of coins from my original count, yet I arrived at contradicting answers. This, along with several other examples (i.e. Hilbert's Hotel) go to show that infinity does not exist in reality.
Now, let us take a look at the empirical evidence supporting this premise. Aside from the obvious Big-Bang model of cosmology, which estimates that the universe came into being from nothing about 13.8 billion years ago, the Borde-Guth-Vilenkin Theorem shows that any universe which is on average in a state of expansion (as our universe is) cannot be eternal.

We then have good reason, both scientifically and philosophically, to reject the claim that the universe (and the matter within the universe) is eternal.

4. Additional Note

I would also like to note that even if it were true that matter was eternal, the conclusion of my opponent's argument does not follow from the premises. It does not follow from (1) anything that is created has a beginning and (2) matter is eternal that therefore God is impossible. It is perfectly conceivable that some kind of god should exist even with the existence of eternal matter. My opponent's argument, if true, only goes as far as to show that God is not the origin of matter, but it does nothing to show that God is somehow impossible. Before any of these issues with my opponent's argument can even be considered, however, we must remember that the second premise in the argument (matter is eternal) is false, as I have demonstrated.

5. Sources
http://now.tufts.edu...
Debate Round No. 1
vi_spex

Pro

matter can never be created and destroyed, only transform

transformation=from something to something

I have no beliefs, I know my experience of now, to me a star is a light in the night sky and nothing beyond that, and the earth I know beneath my feat has no necessary shape

make the matter that is an apple nothing

infinity=beginning without end
eternal=no beginning and no end

im saying matter is eternal not infinite

the big bang model dosnt include something from nothing, only a beginning of the universe as it exists, scientists admit they don't know what was before if it even happened, and many scientists believe there was energy before the big bang

the big bang model as it stands is false, at least the part about time having a beginning, as matter is space and space is time, and matter has no beginning

god exist, god is a story in my mind, or else we couldn't have this conversation, think about this, we just talked about infinity, and you said yourself it cant exist in reality, so how can we talk about it and have and understanding of it when we can never reach it with our physical bodies?

god is information, and information is false and truth, where as matter is true and is the opposite of information. information is 0 percent of the light in my personal physical experience, and information exist beyond space and time, not real
1Credo

Con

1. Rebuttal

"matter can never be created and destroyed, only transform"

New matter can not be created, and the matter that exists can not be destroyed, but this begs the question of where all matter came from.

"im saying matter is eternal not infinite"

In order to hold the view that matter is eternal, you must hold the view that the universe is eternal. In order for the universe to be eternal, there must exist an infinite number of past events. As infinity does not exist in reality, the idea of an eternal universe (or eternal matter) is absurd, as demonstrated in the argument I presented in the opening round.

"the big bang model dosnt include something from nothing, only a beginning of the universe as it exists, scientists admit they don't know what was before if it even happened"

The Big Bang model does, in fact, propose that something (the universe) came from nothing. You admit in your statement that the universe (and therefore matter) began. This contradicts your previous statement that the universe and matter are eternal (no beginning).

"the big bang model as it stands is false"

I'd like to not the blatant disregard and dismissal of the relatively undisputed scientific theory that is The Big Bang.

"god exist, god is a story in my mind, or else we couldn't have this conversation, think about this, we just talked about infinity, and you said yourself it cant exist in reality, so how can we talk about it and have and understanding of it when we can never reach it with our physical bodies?"

I really have no idea what you're getting at here. Although I will say that you again contradict yourself by saying "God exist". The very resolution in which you're defending is that God is impossible, so it seems to me that you ought to drop that belief.

2. Summary

My opponent continues to assert without a shred of evidence that the universe and matter are eternal. He/she denies the theory of The Big Bang without any sort of reasoning. My opponent also failed to address the point I made in the opening round which is that even if both of the premises of my opponent's argument are true (including the premise that matter is eternal) the conclusion does not follow.

My opponent has thus far failed to shoulder the burden of proof for his assertion that God is impossible.
Debate Round No. 2
vi_spex

Pro

there can be no new matter.. that would be creation

infinite=beginning without end
eternal=no beginning and no end

eternal is not infinite in the past, it has no beginning

no the big bang model never states anything about something from nothing, only a beginning of the universe as it exists

god is false, but god exist, lies exist, stories in my mind exist

the evidence is it cant be created and destroyed, it cant have a beginning and an end, so its eternal..
1Credo

Con

1. Rebuttal

"there can be no new matter.. that would be creation"

This is exactly my point. There can by no new matter, but there has to be an explanation for all matter that is currently in existence.

"eternal is not infinite in the past, it has no beginning"

If you bring the concept of eternity into the physical universe, you also bring in the necessity of an infinite number of past events (an infinite regress due to the lack of a first event.

"god is false, but god exist"

My opponent again blatantly contradicts him/herself by stating that God exists directly after stating that God is false.

2. Summary

My opponent continues to assert without a shred of evidence that the universe and matter are eternal. He/she denies the theory of The Big Bang without any sort of reasoning. My opponent also failed to address the point I made in the opening round which is that even if both of the premises of my opponent's argument are true (including the premise that matter is eternal) the conclusion does not follow.

My opponent has thus far failed to shoulder the burden of proof for his assertion that God is impossible.
Debate Round No. 3
vi_spex

Pro

m8, what no beginning and no end means if it is here, is that it didn't begin, and it wont end, as it can only transform, at no point can it be destroyed(from something to nothing)

infinity has a beginning.. eternal means no beginning, and no end

matter is not a concept, you cant destroy matter. make an apple nothing

existence is not necessarily true, stories exist, lies exist, and if god is not true god exist as a lie, and lies are false, not real

the evidence is... it can never be created and destroyed, it cant have a beginning, its absolute, as there is no other option
1Credo

Con

My opponent continues to assert without a shred of evidence that the universe and matter are eternal. He/she denies the theory of The Big Bang without any sort of reasoning. My opponent also failed to address the point I made in the opening round which is that even if both of the premises of my opponent's argument are true (including the premise that matter is eternal) the conclusion does not follow.

My opponent has thus far failed to shoulder the burden of proof for his assertion that God is impossible.
Debate Round No. 4
vi_spex

Pro

the absolutes are the proof, infinity can not end, if it ends its destruction, the absolutes determine this, like matter can only transform

make an apple nothing..

matter is eternal, therefore time has no beginning as time is matter
1Credo

Con

My opponent continues to assert without a shred of evidence that the universe and matter are eternal. He/she denies the theory of The Big Bang without any sort of reasoning. My opponent also failed to address the point I made in the opening round which is that even if both of the premises of my opponent's argument are true (including the premise that matter is eternal) the conclusion does not follow.

My opponent has thus far failed to shoulder the burden of proof for his assertion that God is impossible.

Vote Con!
Debate Round No. 5
No comments have been posted on this debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
vi_spex1CredoTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro used m8 instead of mate, and misspelled "doesn't", and Sao " god exist", so S and G to con. Pro had no sources, so sources to con. Con's source quoted an expert cosmologists who says matter didn't always exist, which negates the resolution. So arguments to con.