The Instigator
vi_spex
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Sarra
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

atheism is a theism, belief to the contrary

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/19/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 654 times Debate No: 78829
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (30)
Votes (0)

 

vi_spex

Pro

i dont know means, i have to imagine it, i can at best imagine it, so if i take my hand behind my back, is my claim that i am showing 3 fingers true?

theist=yes position
atheist=no
agnostic=maybe

i dont know=i have to imagine it=i can at best imagine it
Sarra

Con

How do claims like these relate to whether atheism and theism are the same or different? I agree that you can imagine anything you have previously experiences or discussed, including that atheism and theism are the same to you.
Debate Round No. 1
vi_spex

Pro

because, if you are a theist to unicorns, and you believe unicorns created everything and you will go to unicorn heaven when you die.. then you are an atheist to christianity, no? what is your position if not an atheist, which Means, your theism is atheism to other god claims, and if you stopped, believing in unicorns, you would no longer necessariy be an atheist to the christian god claim, ai?

i dont know means, i have to imagine it, i can at best imagine it, so if i take my hand behind my back, is my claim that i am showing 3 fingers behind my back true? you can also disbelieve my claim, maybe i am showing 4 fingers
Sarra

Con

In Mr. Turtle"s example, god is a unicorn.

*This is with the assumption that the most holy unicorn does not acknowledge the lesser beings that call themselves deities like Banjo the Clown, God of Puppets, or recognize their existence.
http://oots.wikia.com...

According to your definition of atheism, your understanding of the correlation between atheism and theism is correct, as it is a circular reasoning fallacy (a * b therefore b * a). My understanding of atheism and I suspect most readers understanding of atheism are different from yours, Mr. Turtle.

All hail the mighty unicorn with a horn so sharp and pointy. All fellow believers of the one true unicorn are not "atheist" to Christianity, because they believe in the unicorn. They are" what is the word that means believers of one faith, but not all faiths... religious? Devout?

With the assumption that the thumb is a finger and the word up means stretched out from the bulk of the hand, the chance of you holding up three fingers behind your back is 31.25%. This is not a belief, but rather a calculation of odds given the possibilities. There is no way to know how many fingers you choose to hold up behind your back. Are you trying to make a claim that there is a correlation between holding up fingers behind your back and atheism requiring belief?
Debate Round No. 2
vi_spex

Pro

i am not saying theism makes you a disbeliever on your own claim, but that might be the case to

i am saying, in order for there to be any atheist, there must be an argument to defend that position, that is the belief, the god that is believed in by the atheist

and belief is belief in god

if a=b, then b=a
chicken=egg

if you change the claim to not be a counter belief position then you takes atheism out of the equatio.. but you are esentially arguing for me

so its true i am showing 3 fingers behind my back?
Sarra

Con

At first, what vi_spex says comes off as a bit weird, maybe even foreign; but when pondering what he is saying in a proper context, a lot of what he says is deep :)
Debate Round No. 3
vi_spex

Pro

thank you :)

if i show you 3 fingers with my hand, and you see 3 fingers, do you believe my claim that i am showing you a full hand?
Sarra

Con

If the concept of "atheism" was created by people who have no belief system with regards to a god, then we would be in agreement. Sadly, atheism was construed by theists as a means of describing people that were not religious. This becomes obvious when the original definition of atheist is examined (n) a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings. The more modern definition is (n) a person who does not believe in God or gods.

Excluding the tribal people from places like New Guinea and exclusively discussing the atheists who live in religious society, these individuals have a multitude of reasons for being atheists. These people would clearly have a conception of what a god may or should be.

So the question would be "do these people disbelieve in a god or do these people not have a belief in a god"? Not having a desire to speak for everyone within this group, a reasonable answer would be that some people disbelieve and some people do not have a belief.

"if i show you 3 fingers with my hand, and you see 3 fingers, do you believe my claim that i am showing you a full hand?" You would be showing me your full hand.

With examples like the chicken and the egg, are you trying say that we all have beliefs about the unknown?
Debate Round No. 4
vi_spex

Pro

atheism isnt a concept, unless a belief is a concept

atheism has an absolute definition

belief is unknown

i am saying, the theist, is the egg, but the egg is the chicken
Sarra

Con

Both atheism and beliefs are concepts. However, them both being concepts does not make them equal. You have showed one example of how they are not equal. How is the theist the egg?
Debate Round No. 5
30 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
i see that i dont see god, like i see i dont see with my eyes closed
Posted by Sarra 1 year ago
Sarra
"so you agree that theism is atheism, and belief is theism therfore science is a religion?"
no

"" if the christian god // bible is false, then the christian god claim is false"
yes but you dont know that god is true or false"
absolutely

"how do you disbelieve the christian god claim without a belief to the contrary?"
exactly
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
so you agree that theism is atheism, and belief is theism therfore science is a religion?
Posted by Sarra 1 year ago
Sarra
" if the christian god // bible is false, then the christian god claim is false"
yes but you dont know that god is true or false

how do you disbelieve the christian god claim without a belief to the contrary?"

We are in agreement
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
" if the christian god // bible is false, then the christian god claim is false"
yes but you dont know that god is true or false

how do you disbelieve the christian god claim without a belief to the contrary?
Posted by Sarra 1 year ago
Sarra
@Grokka with regards to my style, I am writing to him as if he was a long time friend from facebook; not some opponent that needs to be put in their place. He reminds me of one of my real life friends who talks and writes similarly.

"so what is your position on the christian god claim if you believe the christian god or bible is false?
if the christian god // bible is false, then the christian god claim is false

no.. you need a position to argue from to argue against something, if you have no arguments how could you possibly disbelieve"
We are in agreement. An atheist that has no belief in a god cannot also disbelieve in that god.

"there are only 3 positions that exist on any imaginary claim, yes no or maybe"
we agree
Posted by Sarra 1 year ago
Sarra
@Grokka a) you brought it up, b) it was a joke
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
1=1
stone=stone
Posted by Grokka 1 year ago
Grokka
"Next time you walk in on us intellectually masturbating, please knock first.
This discussion is philosophical. I believe both vi_spex and I have philosophy degrees.Type your comments here..."

Huh...and here I am thinking that a philosophy major would know better than to use the ad hominem logical fallacy. It really makes no difference whether I have a degree in philosophy or underwater basket-weaving. Since you have failed to live up to the basic standard of reason I would expect from anyone trained in debate I will bid you adieu and leave you to your yammering. You might want to consider on your own time that words are merely descriptors of ideas not the ideas themselves. The basic premise of vispex argument is that atheism doesn't exist without theism but that is simply not the case any more than the absence of belief in digital watches by an Amazonian tribesman requires knowledge of digital watches. He does not believe in something he has no concept for. A culture devoid of cult would be atheist and yet not theist. It is false that you require knowledge of thing to be without a belief in it.
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
there are only 3 positions that exist on any imaginary claim, yes no or maybe
No votes have been placed for this debate.