The Instigator
vi_spex
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
roguetech
Con (against)
Winning
5 Points

atheism is a theism, belief to the contrary

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
roguetech
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/27/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 490 times Debate No: 79105
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (18)
Votes (1)

 

vi_spex

Pro

christians are atheists to thor and odin, becasue they believe their god is true ergo Thor and odin can not have created everything, so you will hear arguments for the bible if a christian met a Nordic god believer, atheists clash
roguetech

Con

The word "atheist" has several definitions depending on dictionary.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org...
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...
http://www.macmillandictionary.com...
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Some define it as a lack of belief in any god, others in a belief in the lack of any god. However. it is a label, meant to convey a concept. As such, those who are using it to describe themselves can use their own standard. Most self-identified atheists assert it only describes a lack of belief in any god,[1] as being in direct and exclusive opposition to theism. That is, there is no middle ground between atheism and theism - everyone is one or the other. Those with no opinion at all, are atheists. Those who are uncertain are either theists or atheists, depending on what they accept as true (tentatively or otherwise). For those using the word to describe others, to define it narrowly is to create a strawman argument.

For the opposite side of the coin, theism is not the lack of belief in any god, it is a belief in a god. To claim it means anything else, simply does not match accepted definitions.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org...
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...
http://www.macmillandictionary.com...
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

(Note: Only Cambridge provides a definition for "theist".)

To be a theist does not require belief in all hypothetical gods. No one uses it that way, because it would be absurd. It is equally absurd for anyone to have a positive belief that all hypothetical gods are nonexistent. Although some people believe anything that matches certain definitions of a "god" are fundamentally impossible, atheists typically hold no specific opinion regarding the existence of (for instance) Nashe, the Mesopotamiam god of fishing. Indeed, very very few have any clue what the supposed traits of Nashe is, let alone develop positive beliefs regarding which of those traits are not correct.

Further, this is a misrepresentation of "faith". Faith can mean many things, from belief based on formal evidence (e.g. "I have faith the economy will recover"), belief based on informal evidence (e.g. "I have faith my SO loves me"), belief disproportionate to evidence (e.g. "I have faith God exists, because the bible is evidence"), belief with a lack of evidence (e.g. "I have faith in God, despite there being no evidence") or belief where evidence does not apply (e.g. "I have faith that the universe exists"). In general, "faith" is synomous with "[any] belief". Everyone has beliefs (and therefore "faith"), regardless of belief in a god. Indeed, it is so obviously true, it's equally obvious that is not what is meant when applying "faith" to atheists.

Religion is not merely a belief in a god, it is specifically an *expression* of belief in a god. It is, basically, faith in god. Mere belief or acceptance of the existence of a god does not establish a religion. (The belief in a god with no expression is either non-religious theism or specifically "deism".) To make a claim that "atheism/science is a faith" is not merely intentionally creating a false equivalency, it is done so specifically meant imply that atheism is a religion. There is no accepted definition of "atheism" that includes a worship of a god.

There are atheists who reject the concept of any god. That is typically called either "strong atheism" or "gnostic atheism".

[1] https://www.reddit.com...
Debate Round No. 1
vi_spex

Pro

atheism=disbelief=belief=theism

you can not be an atheist without a belief to argue from

belief=theism

theism can not exist without belief

dont christians have faith that unicorn heaven is false and that unicorns are false? in the case it is contrary to christianity

belief is faith, doubt, trust, confidence...
roguetech

Con

theism = belief in a god. *a*theism = not belief in a god.

Theism is the belief in *any* god, not all gods.

People can *lack* belief. Those who lack belief in all gods are atheists.

Ergo, atheism is not a "theism", it is the absence of theism.

A theist who lacks a belief in something, or even some god, is still a theist since they believe in *a* god. There is no word for someone who believes in all gods, because it would be a useless word. Even just for asserted gods not even the most well educated and informed theologian is even aware of all gods, and it's impossible to be aware of all hypothetically assertable god-concepts.

Presumably, some Christians believe in a unicorn heaven, but not unicorns. As per the popular poem by Shel Silverstien, it is a popular belief that unicorns existed at one time.

https://answersingenesis.org...

Many Christians believe that animals go to heaven (or, possibly, that unicorns had a soul).

http://www.aplb.org...

Ergo, those who believe both believe there is a unicorn heaven. Yet, they may also acknowledge that no unicorns exist. But I honestly have no clue why it's relevant.
Debate Round No. 2
vi_spex

Pro

so what does unicorn believer argue against opposing belief systems without a belief in unicorns?

atheism=disbelief=belief=theism

claiming it dost make it so, disbelief is belief for me to believe to the contrary
roguetech

Con

Disbelief can either refer to a lack of belief, or an opposing belief. A popular example is a jar of sand. If I showed you a large jar full of sand, and stated "there is an even number of sand crystals", to deny that is NOT to accept that there is an odd number. You disbelieve there's an even number, while holding no opinion regarding whether it is even or odd.

Atheism requires theism only in the sense that the concept would be meaningless with theism. However, that doesn't mean the concept *could not* apply, only that it would be useless.

Let's call a belief in Crumpled Horned Snorkacts "jooism". Those who do not accept jooism are ajooists. You are an ajooist. The fact that the word is completely made up doesn't make that false. "Theist" and "atheists" are labels. They are exclusionary, specifically so that there's no one left out - there are no aatheists or aaatheists. (However, there are other words to further subdivide, such as "religious" and "not religious".)
Debate Round No. 3
vi_spex

Pro

if you disbelieve my claim you dont not believe it

i am telling the truth or not, you can believe i am or believe i am not

if i take my hand behind my back, is it true for you to say yes your that you are showing 3 fingers behind your back is true?

no, theism can not exist without atheism, atheism can not exist without theism, any theist is an atheist to the opposite possibility

atheism is religion, belief is theism, disbelief is belief, disbelief is atheism, for me to disbelieve, i must believe to the contrary, i must be an atheist, to be a theist

if we are some guys, and we are outside at a locked room, and we can get our hand inside the room and touch the chair bouncing around inside for whatever reason, and we all feel its a chair, and hear its a chair banging around in there, and some one says, the chair in there is red, he is automaticly an atheist to green chair, and blue chair, we know its a chair but not the colour, and some come argue its green, and i can argue that he dosnt know, while green chair believer argue that the chair is green to the contrary of red chair believer
roguetech

Con

There are three laws of logic. You are ignoring them.

The Law of Excluded Middle states that the opposite of (or "dichotomy" to") belief is *not* belief.

The Law of Identity states that not belief = not belief.

The Law of Non-contradiction states not belief /= belief.

- if you ["disbelieve"] my claim you either believe it [to be untrue or lack a belief it is true]

- i am telling the truth or not, you can believe i am [telling the truth], believe i am not [telling the truth or not believe I am telling the truth]

there is a difference between believing not something and not believing something.

- [yes], theism can not exist without atheism, atheism can exist without theism, any theist is [a theist and possibly a vegetarian, but not an atheist, vegetarian or otherwise]

- the chair in there is red, he is automaticly an atheist to green chair, and blue chair, we know its a chair but not the colour, and some come argue its green, and i can argue that he dosnt know, while green chair believer argue that the chair is green to the contrary of red chair believer

You are ignoring the definition of a "theist". A theist does NOT mean "someone who believes anything". A theist is someone who holds the specific belief there is a god. Not chairs. Not colors. Not rooms with colored chairs. A god. See the definitions I provided in Round 1.

We could just as easily say they are not a theist, because they're a red chair vegetarian, because a vegetarian is someone who beliefs something to be true, like a chair is red or people should only eat non-meat products. Let's not stop there, let's say they're anything at all, since people making word come out is a belief.

WORDS ARE LABELS. They mean something, because we accept they have meaning. That doesn't give you the right to strip all wors of all meaning.
Debate Round No. 4
vi_spex

Pro

the opposite position of belief is disbelief, the opposite of belief is knowledge

belief=belief=i dont accept i dont know
disbelief=belief=i dont accept i dont know
non belief=i accept i dont know

if i believe your claim i believe your claim not disbelieve it, you are either telling the truth or not

belief=theism

is it true that the chair in the room is red?

words mean what they mean, you can change it by lying to yourself, but we have different words because they dont all mean black
roguetech

Con

--"the opposite position of belief is disbelief, the opposite of belief is knowledge"

No, this is not true. "Knowledge" is in every dictionary.

"Belief" is any concept we hold to be true. "Knowledge" is holding any belief to be true. Compare and contrast.

The opposite of "belief" is "not belief". The only synonym with "not belief" is "nonbelief" (i.e. "not belief"). The opposite of "knowledge" is "not knowledge". Terms synonymous with "not knowledge" could be "opinion" OR "ignorance". Opinion and ignorance are NOT synonyms. An opinion is a belief, but is not knowledge. Ignorance is neither a belief nor knowledge - it is a lack of both.

Knowledge addresses gnosticism. It is possible to be both a gnostic or agnostic theist. It is possible to be a gnostic or agnostic atheist.

A gnostic thiest is someone who holds certainty their belief in a god is true.

An agnostic theist is someone who holds uncertainty their belief in a god is true.

A gnostic athiest is somone who holds certainty in their belief no god is true.

An agnostic athiest is someone who lacks any certainty that any god is true.

"Belief" becomes irrelevant for an"agnostic atheist". An atheist can maintain a belief that no gods exist, or they can fail to maintain any belief that any god exist.

--"belief=belief=i dont accept i dont know"

Sure, why not.

--"disbelief=belief=i dont accept i dont know"

Inserting "belief" in there is begging the question.

disbelief=I do NOT accept I DO know (and only *sometimes* "I accept I do NOT know").

"I do not accept I do not know" is functionally the same as "I accept I do know", which is not disbelief. More to the point, you are ignoring the excluded middle. A lack of belief is not the assertion of a belief.

--"non belief=i accept i dont know"

non belief = I don't accept I DO know. Not only still begging the question, but also a contradiction of your prior statement.

"I don't accept I do know" does NOT equal "I do accept I do know"

--"is it true that the chair in the room is red?"

I have no opinion regarding the hypothetical color of the hypothetical chair. If you want to make up a NEW word for my lack of opinion about the chiar, acolored-chairist seems appropriate. Colored-chairist is not, since I have no opinion. Theism addresses a belief IN A GOD. What I hypothetically may or may not think about the hypothetical chair has nothing to do with it.

Theism is not just any belief, or any belief regarding a god, but specifically the belief in *the existence in of* a god. Let's change your analogy from a chair to a god. There's a room. It might contain a god. The god might be colored. That color might be red or green. If you think that IF there is a god in the room, it's red, that doesn't make you theist. If you think there actually is no god in the room, but if there had been it's be red - atheist. If you think there is a god in the room (regardless of color) - theist. Doesn't matter what color you think a god *would* be IF IT EXISTED. It only matters if you think it DOES EXIST.

In conclusion, theism is the acceptance of the existence of a god. Atheism is the lack of acceptance of the existence of any god. There is no third word. There is no third option. There are no other alternatives. Every person is *either* a theist or an athiest. There is no one that is neither.

Thanks for the debate. Enjoyed it. May the lack of gods smile upon you, and you receive all of their many non-existent blessings.
Debate Round No. 5
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
how do you see you cant see with your eyes closed if you are born blind?
Posted by roguetech 1 year ago
roguetech
By talking I talk I cant talk with my mouth closed.
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
by seeing, i see i cant see with my eyes closed
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
i have no beliefs

i dont know
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
why dont you believe i am showing 2 fingers behind my back
Posted by roguetech 1 year ago
roguetech
I have no belief regarding your fingers, how many fingers or how many you cuurently have up your butt. I do not believe you have any up your butt, and I do not believe you have no fingers up your butt.

There are an even number of stars in the galaxy. Do you believe me?
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
a monkey is a monkey not not a monkey, not a plant or car

how can you disbelieve my claim that i am showing you 2 fingers behind my back, without a belief? what im asking is, how can you believe that i am not showing you 2 fingers behind myh back, without a belief
Posted by roguetech 1 year ago
roguetech
More gibberish.

monkey=not monkey=banana=not banana=monkey=not monkey=bananabanana""
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
atheism=disbelief=belief=theism
Posted by roguetech 1 year ago
roguetech
Back to talking gibberish.

belief=not believing rejection believing is not don't
not beluef=believing a belief of not unbelieving acceptance of rejection.

It'real friggen simple:

belief=beluef
not belief=not belief
disbelief=disbelief

belief/=not belief/=disbelief.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Unbelievable.Time 1 year ago
Unbelievable.Time
vi_spexroguetechTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Such a clear win for Con to disprove whatever Pro says. Con is the only one provides link to his sources.