The Instigator
Biowza
Pro (for)
Losing
40 Points
The Contender
bthr004
Con (against)
Winning
43 Points

Australia is a better place to live than the USA.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/5/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 13,925 times Debate No: 4591
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (20)

 

Biowza

Pro

Yes, Australia is a better place to live than the USA. By 'better place to live' I essentially am referring to living standards. This refers to the living standards of the country as a whole, as in, just providing an example of one person living happily does not make any country a better place to live than any other.

This debate is 4 rounds.

I will demonstrate that

A) The living standard in the USA is comparatively poor to Australia
B) The living standard in Australia is superior to that of the USA

Affirmative burden- To demonstrate that Australia is a better place to live than the USA

Negative burden- To demonstrate that the USA is a better place to live than Australia.

Good luck.
bthr004

Con

First I will state that I feel Australia is a great nation.

The topic of this debate is subjective,.. or of personal preference. For instance one that has lived in Australia and has "roots" in Australia may feel more comfort in Australia therefore claiming Australia to be the better place to live.

Certainly the nearly the 1.27 million annual immigrants that choose to leave their native land and live in the United States obviously feel the USA is a better place to live for them. That alone speaks volumes for the amount people that CHOOSE the USA to live in, making it at least the popular choice.

In terms of "quality of living," which is what I predict you will arange your platform on,.. we first must put the 2 nations in to context.

USA population= over 300 million
Australia population= approx. 20 million

Being that the USA is about 15 times as populous as Australia, makes the fact that the USA is #1 in the world for GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT (the value of all final goods and services from a nation in a given year,) even more incredible.

Lets also not forget purchase power parity per capita which is the average net value or earnings of each nations individual citizens. The following is already converted for monetary comparison.

GDP (PPP) Australia= $35,000 (ranked 17th in the world)
GDP (PPP) USA= $46,000 (ranked 4th in the world)

As you can see the average American earns nearly $11,000 more per year than an Australian. A fact that is even more impressive when you take into consideration the gross population difference.

Quality of life,... Not only does the USA earn more PPP than Australia, but Australia pays some of the highest International trade expenses of any nation. Australia pays much more for the same goods and services of the same proportion when compared to the USA, which only adds to the quality of life for Americans. USA citizens have typically more money to spend, thus, large houses, vacation homes, boats, travel, and other leisure activities are seen more commonly in the USA.

Toss that in with the fact the the USA is the most culturally diverse nation with largest amount of immigration annually,.. a world leader in science, technology, music, movies, sports, agriculture, charity, economics, finance, health, etc etc etc,... makes the USA by popular ideal, the better place to live by those whom partake in the above characteristics.
Debate Round No. 1
Biowza

Pro

Thank you for taking the debate. Let me first clarify that, yes we are talking about the quality of life and the standard of living. I'll start by rebutting points.

"Being that the USA is about 15 times as populous as Australia, makes the fact that the USA is #1 in the world for GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT (the value of all final goods and services from a nation in a given year,) even more incredible."

Actually no, having a population 15 times ours makes it much easier to have a larger GDP. You have much better production capacity due to your population, hence more ease to produce...so on and so forth.

"GDP (PPP) Australia= $35,000 (ranked 17th in the world)
GDP (PPP) USA= $46,000 (ranked 4th in the world)"

This does not take into account at all the distribution of wealth amongst the populace. For instance, the USA has over 400 billionaires while Australia has just 12. This makes the GDP per capita argument rather weak.

Let me move onto some cold hard facts that you might find sobering.

- The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (the New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004).

- The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).

- Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Seventeen percent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005).

- The International Adult Literacy Survey...found that Americans with less than nine years of education 'score worse than virtually all of the other countries'.

- Lack of health insurance coverage causes 18,000 unnecessary American deaths a year (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005.)

- U.S. childhood poverty now ranks 22nd, or second to last, among the developed nations. Only Mexico scores lower (The European Dream, p.81).

- Twelve million American families--more than 10 percent of all U.S. households--"continue to struggle, and not always successfully, to feed themselves." Families that "had members who actually went hungry at some point last year" numbered 3.9 million (NYT, Nov. 22, 2004).

- The leading cause of death of pregnant women in the USA is murder (CNN, Dec. 14, 2004).

- American businesses spend $30 billion a year on remedial training (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).

- Europe surpassed the United States in the mid-1990s as the largest producer of scientific literature" (The European Dream, p.70)

- The United States has lost 1.3 million jobs to China in the last decade (CNN, Jan. 12, 2005).

- U.S. employers eliminated 1 million jobs in 2004 (The Week, Jan. 14, 2005).

- Sometime in the next 10 years Brazil will probably pass the U.S. as the world's largest agricultural producer. (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004)

- Bush: 62,027,582 votes. Kerry: 59,026,003 votes. Number of eligible voters who didn't show up: 79,279,000 (Wikipedia)

- One-third of all U.S. children are born out of wedlock. One-half of all U.S. children will live in a one-parent house (CNN, Dec. 10, 2004).

- Americans spend more money on gambling than on movies, videos, DVDs, music, and books combined" (The European Dream, p.28)

- Nearly 900,000 children were abused or neglected in 2002, the last year for which such data are available" (USA Today, Dec. 21, 2004)

From these facts it should be clear that the USA is no where near the leader in 'science, technology, music, movies, sports, agriculture, charity, economics, finance, health, etc etc etc' they don't seem to be even close.

Your economy is being run into the ground. The American national debt is nearing 10 trillion dollars, currently at $ 9,418,965,804,131.95

That's $30,965.42 per citizen.

Many countries are declaring the United States as "bankrupt" or at the very least, nearing bankruptcy.

Next round I'll show why life in Australia is superior to life in the USA.
bthr004

Con

Sure sounds like awful statistics,...

However if you were truly able to PROVE that Australia is a better place to live than the USA because the USA has these "issues" than would you truly believe that if everyone in the USA were to pull up and move to Australia that Australia would be able to "cure" and not inherit these negative U.S. "traits??"

The topic of THIS debate is simple,.. Australia is a better place to live? For whom,.. Australians? Or is it a better place to live for all the world population that decides to move to another nation? In which case, unless you are able to prove otherwise, you wouldnt be able to prove if Australia would not inherit negative traits.

My previous round points simply stated that despite the USA having these major cultural, economic, social, political differences compared to any other nation including Australia,.. pound for pound, the USA out ranks Australia in nearly every category!!

Now on to counter a few of you points,..
"Actually no, having a population 15 times ours makes it much easier to have a larger GDP. You have much better production capacity due to your population, hence more ease to produce...so on and so forth"

You certainly could not blame the larger GDP on population,.. The great plains states of the USA produce nearly 40% of the worlds food!! Thats means the USA is global leader in agriculutre exports. To add just another perspective,.. 1 pound of every 3 pounds of pork eaten in the WORLD was produced in the USA! We also incredibly outweigh the rest of the planet in nearly every technology,.. ALL SATELLITES IN ORBIT ARE USA PROPERTY! Think about that one!

But I could easily go on and on about the possitives of the USA as well as the negatives,... however that would not prove or disprove my stance on the topic of this debate, nor does it my opponent!

I will now take on my opponents claims,...

"This does not take into account at all the distribution of wealth amongst the populace. For instance, the USA has over 400 billionaires while Australia has just 12. This makes the GDP per capita argument rather weak."

How does the GDP PPP index I listed show to be weak because the USA has the most millionares and billionaires in the world? LOL,.. an average is exactly what it is,... an average! Not only that but I only have to prove why Australia is not a better place to live than the USA! And my opponents above statement only proves my point! The USA encourages entreprenuership as well as allows an individual the easiest ways to become wealthy, which is a wonderful characteristic describing why the USA is a better place to live!

In Australia a citizen only has a .0000006% shot of becoming a billionare,... in the USA a citizen has a .0000013% shot at becoming a billionare! Pretty dang good considering that the USA has the most cultural and social diversity, as well as 15 times the population of Australia.

"- The United States is 49th in the world in literacy
- The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy"

These facts still prove nothing,... Australia and the USA still show a tie of 99% literacy. The only difference is that the USA has 15 times the population as well as USA having languages of English 82.1%, Spanish 10.7%, other Indo-European 3.8%, Asian and Pacific island 2.7%, other 0.7%. Making "educational barriers" more frequent in the USAs' education system that must be overcome.

"- Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Seventeen percent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005).

- The International Adult Literacy Survey...found that Americans with less than nine years of education 'score worse than virtually all of the other countries'."

I was un able to find anything to back up those claims of my opponents,.. so I will just point out the INCREDIBLE CLAIM that 37% of the U.S. population actually believes those things,.. and than I laugh at the thought of actually being able to carry such a survey with at all any accuracy!! An incredible and weak point perhaps "researched" with very poor effort by one with a clear agenda backing any attempt of "journalistic integrity," that silly magazine wishes to have!! Absolute rubbish and very weak of my opponent to try to pass that along as factual evidence,..lol!

Obviously one would score less if only nine or less years of education,... what does that prove! Perhaps Australia has the smartest dumb people,.. congrats!

"- Lack of health insurance coverage causes 18,000 unnecessary American deaths a year (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005.)"

USA is not socialist,.. USA is true individual freedoms,.. everyone has the power to be as rich or as poor as they wish! "unnecessary" deaths are a foolish idea, as the USA laws state no health professional can deny treating patients in immediate health risk. Your NYT article is claiming that the 18,000 deaths of those people were unnecessary because they didn't have health insurance,.. when common sense says it was the illness that killed them! In the USA EVERYONE has the right to work hard, study, and work towards bettering themselves and their standard of living!

"- The leading cause of death of pregnant women in the USA is murder"
"- Nearly 900,000 children were abused or neglected in 2002, the last year for which such data are available"

Hmmm,... Australia is not so perfect or innocent as well!!
-41% of men reported experiencing an assault since the age of 15 and 5% experienced sexual assault in this time.
-29% of women experienced assault and 17% experienced sexual assault since the age of 15.

Overall, almost half (46%) of men and women reported having experienced an assault and/or sexual assault since the age of 15.

These are facts not found in a newspaper column but from the actual Australian govt. website, Australias criminology dept. www.aic.gov!!

Since the topic of this debate or platforms are to prove quality of LIFE, I fail to see how someone dies in the USA effects the quality of ones life up to their death! Considering that nealry half of Australians are assaulted and largely sexually assaulted,.. I would say those crimes effect quality of LIFE more so than the USA!

"The United States has lost 1.3 million jobs to China in the last decade (CNN, Jan. 12, 2005).
- U.S. employers eliminated 1 million jobs in 2004 (The Week, Jan. 14"

The USA unemployment rate is still the lowest of most nations and nearly deadlocked with Australias 4.4% and 4.6%!! The USA also still boasts a 2.2% annual GDP growth rate despite 7 years of 9/11, Hurricane Katrina, droughts, 200 year flood, two wars in the past, high production costs, high fuel, and Australians! oh, and USAToday says 2,280,000 jobs were ADDED!

"Twelve million American families--more than 10 percent of all U.S. households--"continue to struggle, and not always successfully, to feed themselves." Families that "had members who actually went hungry at some point last year" numbered 3.9 million"

12,000,000 people is only 4% of the population of the USA,.. 3.9 million hungry people equals is 1% of USA,... say USA has a poverty rate around 5% based on those figures,...

Australia has a poverty rate according to the Melbourne Institute (college, not newspaper,) of nearly 13 %,.. 15% of children live below the poverty line, and 22% of single parent homes live in poverty!!! These figures are backed also by Australian Council of Social Services!! The most I could find of the USA was a mere 5.3% of USA below the poverty line!

"One-third of all U.S. children are born out of wedlock. One-half of all U.S. children will live in a one-parent house"

USA divorce rate: 45.8%
Australia divorce rate: 46%
Australia 30% birth out of wedlock!
www.divorcemag.com
Debate Round No. 2
Biowza

Pro

Maybe you missed out on this, the USA national debt is nearly 10 TRILLION dollars. That's right TRILLION, the USA national debt currently is 65% of the gross domestic product. SIXTY FIVE PERCENT!!! Let me ask you, who is going to be paying for this debt? You got it, the people. The national debt will cost about $31,000 dollars per person to pay off. Sound like good living to you? Not to me, recent estimates state that it will take upwards of 7 generations to pay off.

In fact, if you want to count this debt against the GDP (certainly not an unreasonable thing to do) then the USA GDP per person would be about $14,750. Not very impressive.

Onto some points of yours...

-You somehow claim that the USA having more billionaires makes it better to live in the USA. Not only are the chances negligible of becoming a billionaire in both countries, but you've given no reason to suggest why this is even a matter of chance, you say yourself that one must work hard to achieve this. If this is the case, why even bring up probabilities?

-Constant talking of your population and 'language barriers' proves nothing. This isn't about what the USA would be like if it had less people, or how things would be if people only spoke english. It's about things as they are, and as it stands, you can't dodge the facts.

-You laugh at the claim, and yet present no evidence whatsoever to attempt to rebut it. Not only this, but you attack a reputable source with once again, not one shred of evidence. I feel inclined to suggest you are being weak by dismissing the facts I have presented as 'rubbish' without anything supporting your claim.

-I am fully aware that the USA is not socialist (which you seem to think is an insult, but whatever). However, it is quite frankly laughable that you say that it is the illness killing the person and not the lack of insurance. This is comparable to blaming the ground for killing someone who jumped off a building. Lack of health insurance apparently CAUSED these deaths, which means, with health insurance these people would not be dead.

-An assault? This can be anything from a backyard fight, to a friendly muck around, to a full blown mugging. Everyone gets in a scrap, especially males in their adolescence. The sexual assault stats also are not clear, because in australia this includes consensual sex under the age of 16 (or someone 18+ having sex consensually with someone between 16-18).

-Complaining about "9/11, Hurricane Katrina, droughts, 200 year flood, two wars in the past, high production costs, high fuel," really does nothing at all, following your logic, the standard of living in Darfur is much better than Australia and the USA combined. Once again you are mislead by your GDP growth rate due to the USA's crippling national debt, recession, and near bankrupt economy.

-Well, actually no. The USA's poverty percentage is currently between 12 and 15% with roughly 40% (about 120 million people) will fall below the poverty line in the next 10 years. Not only this, but according to the human poverty index, 20% of americans lack functional literary skills and 17% of people fall below 50% of the median income. (human poverty index)

Now let's move onto why life in Australia is superior to the already established poor life in the USA.

One of my main points, is a referral to the Human Development Index, this is a report used by the UN to establish LIVING STANDARDS of different countries, also

" The Human Development Index (HDI) is an index combining normalized measures of life expectancy, literacy, educational attainment, and GDP per capita for countries worldwide. It is claimed as a standard means of measuring human development, a concept that, according to the United Nations Development Program (UNDP) refers to the process of widening the options of persons, giving them greater opportunities for education, health care, income, employment, etc. "

Now, lets take a look at that Index shall we? http://hdr.undp.org...

What do we find? We find that Australia ranks THIRD and the USA ranks a rather unimpressive TWELFTH. I'll state that again...

An empirical study on standard of living ranks Australia third and the USA 12th.

Moving on to studies of the world's most livable cities (the economist, and mercer, both of which are fully supported by the UN). A bit of information on the actual studies "Mercer's Quality of Life Survey is released annually, comparing 215 cities based on 39 criteria...Important criteria are safety, education, hygiene, recreation, political-economic stability and public transportation."

So what do we see on the respective lists?

-In the "economist's" study, four, thats right, FOUR Australian cities are in the top ten (Melbourne 2nd, Perth 4th, Adelaide tied at 7th, and Sydney tied at 9th). Where do US cities rank in this list? Nowhere, not one spot in the top ten is occupied by a US city.

-Mercer's list shows five Australian cities gracing the top 50, the first US city to appear on that list is Honolulu which ranks 28. Three of the five Australian cities occupying the top 50 rank above Honolulu. You read correctly.

It should be clear from these studies that from the people's opinion's that matter (ie, we eliminated subjectivity as you said in round 1) that Australia is a better place to live than the USA.
bthr004

Con

I do not have alot of time so I will make this quick.

My opponent has NOT eliminated the SUBJECTIVITY!! Again,.. the topic of this debate was "Australia is a better place to live than the USA."

My opponent fails to understand that it is personal preference to "like" where you live. Australia is better place to live than the USA,.. to who? Those who are currently deciding to leave their native lands for another? Obviously not, as they are choosing the USA.

To who?,... the American farmers that harvest high yields from some of the most fertile lands in the world? And not not the vast dried up lands of rural Australia!

To who?,.. the American athletes that have more leagues and programs that lead and develop and train the greatest athletes in the world! 974 Olympic gold medalists!!! Most of any nation in the history of the Olympics!

To who?,.. the actors, singers, movie makers, that enjoy the USA pop culture as a multi billion dollar industry, and the world wide standard and manager of such!

To who?,.. the secondary education instructors that find work in the USA because it is home to the most colleges and universities (post-secondary) schools!

gotta go,.. but you get my point! My opponents topic is obviously subjective, simply because it is of personal prefrence,.. I feel that the USA is better place for me to live,.. and my two close Australian born, raised, and educated friends that have moved to the USA and have been living and loving in the USA for 32 years for one, and the other over 40!
Debate Round No. 3
Biowza

Pro

It seems my opponent has given up on refuting points as well as presenting his own.

To be quite clear, I feel I have eliminated subjectivity. I have presented three empirical studies, all fully supported by the United Nations that demonstrate overwhelmingly that Australia is a better place to live than the USA. These aren't even close wins, either they are total blowouts. To repeat myself, Australia ranks third in the world in the Human Development Index, third. The USA ranks nine, that's right, nine places under Australia. They rank twelfth, and Australia ranks third. If you want to cry conspiracy and say the UN hates the US then go for it, but the people voting this know that three separate studies supported by the UN is about as objective as it gets. It is very possible for this debate to be objective. For instance, I can freely admit that Australia probably isn't the best place in the world to live, in terms of health care/public transport/democratic freedom/etc there are probably better places. I'm sure many other people can admit this as well.

It is a bit sad that you've decided to essentially stop arguing and have just begun coming up with stories about random people. As I set out clearly in the first round:

"...just providing an example of one person living happily does not make any country a better place to live than any other."

These sort of tactics get us nowhere. I could very easily come up with random 'feel good' stories of "The young American engineer who made it big in the Western Australian mining industry" or "The Australian athletes who have won 121 gold medals at the Olympics" (A much more impressive feat, when you consider the USA's population is 15 times that of Australia). But these sorts of stories prove nothing and they just turn these debates into matters of opinion.

So summing up...

I've shown that, through statistics involving the USA national debt ($31,000 dollars per person roughly, taking upwards of 7 generations to pay back), as well as stats and facts involving social problems in the USA such as child abuse, poverty, murder rate, literacy, and unemployment, that the USA is a comparatively poor place to live when compared to Australia.

I've also shown, through three separate and UN approved studies on standard of living (that exact thing we are debating about) that Australia easily outranks the USA in terms of living standards. These studies haven't been answered nor even addressed.

My opponent will try make you feel national pride and get all the Americans on his side through patriotic remarks about the USA medal tally and things like that. But this has little, if anything, to do with living standards as I had clearly set this out at the very beginning. The resolution was "Australia is a better place to live than the USA", and I feel I have demonstrated this clearly.

Vote PRO.
bthr004

Con

4 rounds,.. dang.

Ok,.. well here goes,..

My opponent has NOT eliminated the subjectivity, objectivity,.. from the topic or their stance. Australia is NOT a better place to live than the USA because my opponent has not explained to whom Australia is better suited for living!!

It is simple! This is not a matter of patriotic honor! My opponent simply states that Australia is a better place to live than the USA!!!

I only have to provide one example of Australia not being a better place to live in order to contradict my opponents position. If I am successful in proving solid contradicting evidence,.. I win!

So here is one and last piece of evidence,...

The USA has more Agriculturally employed citizens than Australia has population!!

The USA has 1,867,059 acres of productive rich land, one of the richest nations in natural resources!!!

Australia has only 468,502 acres of arable land! That is pretty limiting!

So just make things fast here, and not go through every area that the USA excels in much better than Australia and the millions of people that MUST live in the USA in order carry out these areas of superiority, I will finish with this contradictory chunk of evidence!

My opponent's position on this topic is false,.. I showed how over 21 million people LITERALLY could NOT have a better life in Australia when compared to the USA!!

Vote Con,. thank you.
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by mindgardens 2 months ago
mindgardens
I'm an American living in Australia and I can tell you now that life in America is far better. I would move back in a skinny minute if given the chance. I don't want to be here anymore. Am sick of the nanny state politics, the lack of freedoms, crazy drivers, bland food, subservient attitudes, the superiority complexes, the anti-american rhetoric, crappy weather, etc... list goes on. Am just ready to go home now.
Posted by bthr004 6 years ago
bthr004
Danes do seem happy :)

I was was just trying to put across the point that my opponent did not specify to whom Australia is better suited for living,.. I showed a group of people that would not find such quality of life if they moved from the US to Australia.

I admit my patriotic spirit did get the better of me in this debate, and I took to much personal stake to make a strong debate.
Posted by Derek.Gunn 6 years ago
Derek.Gunn
The best country must surely be the one with the most happy people within it.
GDP isn't a good measure, as getting injured, divorced, sued etc all increase GDP.
I don't believe greater diversity makes people happier either.
The two countries have very similar suicide rates.
In the USA there are 5.7 murders per 100,000 people per year.
In Australia there are 1.3.
Still, it doesn't tell you who's happiest over all.

There was a study done a while back... and guess who's happiest?
Neither, they're about the same!
http://news.bbc.co.uk...
(The Danes are supposedly the happiest people.)
Posted by camelunfiltered 6 years ago
camelunfiltered
Sometimes the statistics and the number just don't add up to a damned thing when it comes to quality of life.
Posted by NeoLiberal 6 years ago
NeoLiberal
I would be careful arguing the bigger country is better, as India and China will be the biggest soon, eventually followed by Russia and Brazil later. Will that make them the best nations?

The largest countries will always produce the most technology, food, entertainment, jobs, crime, poverty, etc. China will probably win the most medals in the Olympics and the most CO2 this year, for instance.

With its higher immigration rates, I'm quite sure Australia is more diverse than the US, though.

I do comparative research a lot, so I would have like to see more focus on the MEDIAN worker. To the average person, which country is a better place to live? I would imagine the rich would live better in the US and the poor would live better in Australia.
Posted by bthr004 6 years ago
bthr004
I really wanted to keep going but I ran out of characters in round 2!!
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Reasons for voting decision: pro didn't provide any answers to con's question about why more and more australians are immigrating to United States every year while Americans are not immigrating to australia.American is known for resilience.. people don't mind about debts because they all know they can always pay off because US is a land of opportunities while australia isn't.
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Vote Placed by Killer542 6 years ago
Killer542
Biowzabthr004Tied
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