The Instigator
th-0
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
gordonjames
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

authorized kjv is right 100% of the time :)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/27/2013 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 673 times Debate No: 36054
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
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th-0

Pro

I read the kjv ten years ago and have been testing it out to see if its true, all these years. I have found it to be so... The advice of the kjv has gotten me through some puzzling situations; the outcomes were better than they would have been if I had done what I would have done instictively. I invite anyone to find something wrong in the kjv :) But prob'ly, everyone loves it so there will be no takers i guess... lol, just teasin'
gordonjames

Con

Hi!
I hope for a fun debate.
My love for the Bible is huge. Itry to read it through once a year.
With that said, I trust that Holy Spirit will help us understand what we need to understand.
I am a little afraid of some of the people who want so much certainty from this world that they claim a certain version of the Bible is perfect, and could not possibly have some error (that fallable peoplw may have introduced)
PRO has stated "authorized kjv is right 100% of the time :)"
One way to refute this is to show where different editions of the KJV have different words and meanings.
1. There are several different editions of the KJV that have substantial differences. [1]
a) Oxford vs. Cambridge editions
Today there are two versions of the KJV in use: the Oxford and the Cambridge editions. Some of the differences in them affect the meaning of the text as well. For example, here are a couple Cambridge passages vs. their Oxford counterparts.
Jeremiah 34:16 – “whom ye had set” vs. “whom he had set”
2 Timothy 2:2 – “heard from me” vs. “heard of me”
b) kjv 1611 VS KJV 1769 - THESE DIFFERENCES CHANGE THE MEANING
The 1611 reading is first, followed by the 1769.
1 Corinthians 12:28 – “helpes in gouernmets” vs. “helps, governments”
Joshua 3:11 – “Arke of the Couenant, euen the Lord” vs. “ark of the covenant of the Lord”
2 Kings 11:10 – “in the Temple” vs. “in the temple of the LORD”
Isaiah 49:13 – “for God” vs. “for the LORD”
Jeremiah 31:14 – “with goodnesse” vs. “with my goodness”
Jeremiah 51:30 – “burnt their dwelling places” vs. “burned her dwellingplaces”
Ezekiel 6:8 – “that he may” vs. “that ye may”
Ezekiel 24:5 – “let him seethe” vs. “let them seethe”
Ezekiel 24:7 – “powred it vpon the ground” vs. “poured it not upon the ground”
Ezekiel 48:8 – “which they shall” vs. “which ye shall”
Daniel 3:15 – “a fierie furnace” vs. “a burning fiery furnace”
Matthew 14:9 – “the othes sake” vs. “the oath’s sake”
1 Corinthians 15:6 – “And that” vs. “After that”
1 John 5:12 – “the Sonne, hath” vs. “the Son of God hath”
SInce PRO is making the claim, and has the BOP.
Any one of these differences is evidence against his claim.
Debate Round No. 1
th-0

Pro

Hey gordonjames :)

Im very exited to debate with you! This is my first debate, and after reading your response, (well said btw) I can see that
I have much to learn; I did not state my claim clearly enough.

"The KJV is right 100% of the time," refers to the advice of the KJV instead of the word ar-
rangement. It is true that the translations vary, but to say that one is not perfect implies that another version is...

If I were to say, "The sky is blue today," it would also be true to say "Today, the sky is blue." Essentially, the second statement is a translation of the first, Personally, the KJV has been sufficient for me, and is my recommendation.
gordonjames

Con

Thanks for your thoughts in round 2.

I came to a debate and suddenly find myself with nothing to debate.
We are agreed that the Bible gives great advice / council / examples / and more.

Psalm 119:1-2
1 How blessed are those whose way is blameless,
Who walk in the law of the Lord.
2 How blessed are those who observe His testimonies,
Who seek Him with all their heart.


I want to respond to a few of your statements . . .

“the kjv has gotten me through some puzzling situations” - this sounds like you have a story or two. Tell us one or two.

___


“Essentially, the second statement is a translation of the first”
Not so, translation (outside mathematics) refers to taking a statement in one language and stating the same idea in another. Yours is a restatement, and even there we can get into trouble. In Luke 23:42-43 we have a statement from Jesus to the man on the cross beside him.

42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

People have argued for at least 2 differing readings
(truly I say to you today) - you shall be with Me in Paradise OR
(truly I say to you) - today you shall be with Me in Paradise

the first could be a figure of speech (truly I say to you today) - eventually you will be in paridise
the second is more immediate (It’s true) “today you shall be with Me in Paradise”

Remember there was no punctuation in the original Greek. Translators try to figure out the meaning of the original and then try to make it clear in our language.

_____

“I invite anyone to find something wrong in the kjv” - The editors of the KJV found issues or problems that needed fixing, or there would not be different editions.

The Cambridge vs. Oxford (both current) editions of the KJV
Jeremiah 34:16 – “whom ye had set” vs. “whom he had set”
2 Timothy 2:2 – “heard from me” vs. “heard of me”
These both change the meaning of the text, not just word arrangements or spelling.

There are the major version revisions of 1611 and 1769 which have made changes in the meaning. Also there were several editions of the 1611 version. See my round 1.

“to say that one is not perfect implies that another version is...”
This is a logical fallacy in several ways.
a) They could all be less than perfect. There is no reason any translation must be perfect.
b) The idea that we need perfection in a text is flawed. God is perfect. The rest of us not so. It is the same with the scriptures. They point to a perfect God, but there is no place I can think of where Jesus says they are perfect.

In MT 5 we read
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Some take v. 18 as a claim of scriptural perfection, but it is Jesus saying that the Law will not change (be abolished) until it is fulfilled.


Another scripture to consider is 2 Timothy 3:14-17 where scripture is said to be inspired and profitable.
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Here is my position on issues brought up un this debate.

1. The best Bible version / edition is the one you faithfully read, and through which you hear from God.

2. The KJV is a an adequate translation. There are a few places where I believe it misses the point of a good translation (letting the reader know what was intended by the original Greek, Hebrew & Aramaic words) but these do not change the core message, and any serious student will quickly become aware of these few verses.

3. It is God that is perfect. I fear we make idols of many things, including our interpretation of scripture, our sectarian theological positions and much more.




have a great day.
Debate Round No. 2
th-0

Pro

Hey again, mr gj :) Thanks for your kindness; I truly had no idea the debate process. I found this website and said the first thing on my mind that I felt was worth defending. I am too much of an oversimplifier, but I will try :)

Yessir, we do agree that the bible gives great advice and all.

Psalm 119:1,2 KJV
Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.
Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.

The version of the above verses which you posted are questions; The KJV verses are the answers

to those questions...

"How blessed?" "Blessed."

Why is "who" capitalised?

"Observe?" or "keep?" Which is most respectful? Idk.

"...all their heart," translated to, "...the whole heart," why did that need to be translated? Someone underestimated our intelligence, I guess.

About the "puzzling situations" I mentioned.. well, those stories are best told over coffee, and I thinkI'd better take some KJV advice right now.. Proverbs 17:28a KJV " Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace is counted wise:" (lol jst a little bible humor:)

Okay, about the definition of translation, you're right. That verse about paradise works both ways, at the same time.

Okay, about translation after translation after translation...I know a guy who's an expert on that subject, i wish you could talk to him.I do have some comments, though.

The authorized KJV can be reprinted and/or distributed freely, whereas other versions reqiure permissions and/ or royalties. This implies that one motive for translating is for financial gain, and as if the publisher were the owner of those words.

Something about the version of Matthew 5:17 posted within your response:

Matthew 5:17 KJV says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am come not to destroy but to fulfill."

"I am" is actually a name of God, why omit that reference of oneness between God and Jesus?

Im happy and excited that there are bibles, and that people are blessed by them :) I wouldnt want anyone to miss out on the above "ah-ha" moment, though :)

In conclusion to your 1,2,& 3:
1. Yep. that's what i was sayin'. (lol gj! Jst a little play on words :)
2. The core message seems to be mainly lost in the world, which might make it seem like he word of God isn't powerful enough to jelp in times of trouble, or otherwise. Idk what happened to make it this way; my theory is perhaps the words have been corrupted.

3. Amen, God is perfect.
Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

That's not idolatry.

ps... the specific bible advice I was gonna tell you about is actually in Matthew 5:33-48... Works every time, God bless all :)
gordonjames

Con

Not much of a debate at this pont, but a great discussion ;-)


I liked your comment on financial gain.
“The authorized KJV can be reprinted and/or distributed freely, whereas other versions reqiure permissions and/ or royalties. This implies that one motive for translating is for financial gain, and as if the publisher were the owner of those words.”

Legally speaking, the copyright owner does own their translation of those wonderful words.
Does that imply that financial gain is the only or primary motive?
We never know a person’s motivation for sure, but people who devote their life to the business of translating and publishing scripture are probably motivated by their love for God and His word.



I was a little confused by your first statements in Round2

I quoted the NASB of Psalm 119:1-2 (bellow)
The you made some unusual assertions.

“The version of the above verses which you posted are questions”
Actually - no.
“How blessed” is a statement like “greatly blessed”
Not a question, but a statement.

“Why is "who" capitalised?”
They are trying to preserve the form of poetry from the original (so they split the verses into two lines to reflect the meter of the origina)
They capitalize the first word of each line because that is current convention in English.
Remember, punctuation is a new invention, and paragraphs and spacing are also different across languages and the large span of time.


"...all their heart," translated to, "...the whole heart," why did that need to be translated? Someone underestimated our intelligence, I guess.”

Here is the link to the interlinear Hebrew / English of Psalm 119
http://interlinearbible.org...

No one translated “all their heart” to anything else.
The Hebrew was translated to English

In 1611 the best they could do was the 1611 KJV - http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...

1 [ALEPH.] Blessed are the vndefiled in the way: who walke in the Law of the Lord.1
2 Blessed are they that keepe his testimonies: and that seeke him with the whole heart.


Notice how the interlinear translates ALL but the KJV made an editorial decision that WHOLE gave the meaning better to the people of the day so they used that word.

Notice how the NASB uses the word ALL.

This would not be an issue for me as both give a good meaning of the original Hebrew. Remember there are seldom exact/direct translations for words in another language. They don’t use different words for our concepts, but the concepts are different. Our best words do not completely express the beauty or the meaning of the Hebrew poetry.



Psalm 119:1-2 (NASB)
1 How blessed are those whose way is blameless,
Who walk in the law of the Lord.
2 How blessed are those who observe His testimonies,
Who seek Him with all their heart.



Have a great day.
Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by th-0 3 years ago
th-0
Yes, for real :) thankyou so much for participating :) yay gordonjames, i so appreciate it :) You are an awesome debater. As for me.. Well, id better stick to candy crush lol

Bye :)
Posted by gordonjames 3 years ago
gordonjames
http://biblesanity.org...

this is a good comparison of some aspects of NASB and KJV
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