The Instigator
tychicus12
Con (against)
The Contender
KruelBotFeir
Pro (for)

belief in free will has emotional benefits to the believer and results in more actual freedom

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Debate Round Forfeited
KruelBotFeir has forfeited round #2.
Our system has not yet updated this debate. Please check back in a few minutes for more options.
Time Remaining
00days00hours00minutes00seconds
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/9/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 month ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 62 times Debate No: 105686
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (0)
Votes (0)

 

tychicus12

Con

The whole lie of free will looks good to those inside it because it seems to offer the idea of an ability to get "out from under" a bad situation in general and to empower a journey toward good actions to reap positive emotional benefits within a larger emotional economy shared by others.

However, the actual existence inside the lie of free will is very different. The very rules and norms fostered and the infinite 'how-tos' of getting to a place where one recognizes freedom has been "kept" "used" and "done" or 'lived in' restricts the deceived more and more and postpones the idealized realization into a non-specified future point that simply never arrives, or if it claimed to have arrived, is never satisfying, despite constantly "learning how" to "be stronger or smarter" in the efforts. Thus the constant lyrics best encapsulated by those inside the lie of free will of "you pay for this and they give you that.." ( Neil Young "Hey Hey My My")

Life inside the lie is simply one of never getting what you supposedly put the work in to achieve or having to redefine the goal to say you achieved it to keep making the idea of free will keep its attraction.

Those deceived free will is true:

1. constantly postpone an idealized use of the will in order to save the whole being for later when perhaps circumstances will be better suited for the execution of that idealized action ( and thus "save part of the free will for later" like a commodity )
2. constantly re-examine and re-define what happened on the last use of that idealized free will in order to shoehorn the results into a positive emotional outlook for the future and the positive utility of the lie of free will itself by extension. The term 'happiness' or 'satisfaction' is just pasted over whatever happens as a result of an idealized rule of behavior supposedly being followed
3. desperately be seen by others in that lie as supposedly constantly "doing the proofs" of having a free will else they will be seen as essentially non-human given the belief within the lie of free will that having a free will is the default state and part of the definition of "being human". Human beings in the womb and those in comas and serious ill health are constantly denigrated and killed by advocates of the lie of free will as supposedly having "run out of free will" or never having it at all and simply viewed as "free will batteries" than ran out of power for everyone else. "why are you making use part of my free will to help yours? What about me?"
4. lie about the emotional utility of belief in free will ..constantly. (Studies funded by John Templeton Foundation and others paying so-called "scientists" to say that those who even think of or are 'exposed to' determinism are meaner, unhappier, unproductive people when in fact all the arch criminals in history have been ardent free willers ( Hitler, Clinton, Obama, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc.)
5. build political platforms on the notion of protecting the lie of free will but as if it were true, ( "the other political party will take away all our freedoms and ideals of how a free will ought to be forced to be used!" ..the Democratic Party unspoken creed ) while perpetuating egregious evils in so-called defense of 'freedom' by which is expressly meant the lie of free will.
6. use the word "freedom" as a generic equivalent of the terms "personal free will"

The notion of having a free will imprisons the deceived within so-called emotional norms ( expected etiquette ) and rules of idealized behavior designed around high sounding goals that in fact destroy any actual independence or hope of happiness. The lie is never "over" because its point is to constantly keep that prison on-going as if "the place where the notion of free will actually works/the-big-payoff is just ahead". Thus one never attains what it promises and can't else the lie would end.

Less and less and less freedom is the norm with more and more and more rules more rigorously enforced by the others in the same lie deceived a trespass against the idealized models of successful behavior ( the how-to-use-the free will rules ) endanger the emotional opportunity of themselves and the future believers in free will. Ancillary to the lie of free will is that the larger number of those who think they have free will results in an aggregate gain of freedom for mankind. In fact it results in a larger geographic invisible prison.

The notion of free will turns everyone against each other as the supposed sole reason why certain actions didn't turn out..some other person with superpowers of will either prevented the results of the actions taken by one to achieve the emotions desired or by inaction didn't 'do their part'. It is a blame engine that makes of every other person a potential obstacle to "personal realization of emotional goals".

To say that "even if its not true, we have to keep telling ourselves we have free will for emotional stability" is a lie.

1Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of divination, And selfwill is as iniquity and idolatry.

Eph 2:3-6 among whom *we* also all once had our conversation in the lusts of our flesh, doing what the flesh and the thoughts willed to do, and were children, by nature, of wrath, even as the rest: but God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love wherewith he loved us, (we too being dead in offences,) has quickened us with the Christ, (ye are saved by grace,) and has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
KruelBotFeir

Pro

Yeah I'm going to straight up ignore the nonsense Con has posted and hit you with the hard facts.

In a reality where there's no free will (and in believing this) every bit of effort you put into any passionate endeavour is never going to satisfy you as if you succeed, it wasn't your doing and if you fail it was inevitable and you will feel no urge to try harder to achieve your dreams.

Furthermore, the issue with determinism as an outlook is that a society becomes psychopathic anarchy at its hilt since there's absolutely no way to have a justice system if the criminals all couldn't help but do their crimes. This is not at all healthy and is one of the most emotionally unhealthy political systems... The only thing worse than pure right-wing styled anarchy is pure tyranny of any kind.
Debate Round No. 1
tychicus12

Con

So we have statements by PRO that people will become ..something bad if they know there is no free will and bad things will happen to everyone.

Yet what the PRO has said does nothing to address what society already is when most people think they have free will and the suicides, mass depression and violence to others by people based on a theory of having personal freedom that cannot be ideally used. These suicides and victims of depression and criminals universally believe in free will. They are deceived they must do what they do because the very emotional opportunities PRO points out as supposedly real don't work and never did after repeated attempts.

Pro's "I'm just straight up going to ignore what Con said" is just admitting PRO has no answer for any of the points made of what it is like to think you have free will. I suppose PRO wants us all to think that we all believe in determinism and that most people in society know they don't have free will but if everyone suddenly started saying "I'm in charge of my own destiny" we would live in paradise. Yet that is already the state of affairs and everyone is constantly looking "for a change" because the supposed benefits of supposedly having a free will never work out. Everyone knows that comedians and professionals who job it is to "cheer people up" 1. have a job because most people believe in free will that keeps not-working 2. are seen as fringe people by the rest of society as not being realistic

PRO is proving they really do think they can get "out from under" a lack of realizing dreams by just tapping their heals together and saying "I've got free will. I've got free will."

James 4:13-16 Go to now, ye who say, To-day or to-morrow will we go into such a city and spend a year there, and traffic and make gain, ye who do not know what will be on the morrow, ( for what is your life? It is even a vapour, appearing for a little while, and then disappearing,) instead of your saying, If the Lord should so will and we should live, we will also do this or that. But now ye glory in your vauntings: all such glorying is evil.

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 2
This round has not been posted yet.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 3
This round has not been posted yet.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 4
No comments have been posted on this debate.
This debate has 4 more rounds before the voting begins. If you want to receive email updates for this debate, click the Add to My Favorites link at the top of the page.