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The Contender
Con (against)
16 Points

believe in jesus not in religion

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/1/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,218 times Debate No: 29761
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (6)
Votes (4)




jesus is the only thing we should believe in, religion is more of a detour to what is really important, some people go to church just to say they believe in god but when challenges come they question gods decisions people kill, some preists commit rape i'm not saying religion is totally wrong i believe its a guide and a window to communicate with jesus but wouldnt it be better to pray because you want to not because you have to? jesus said love me and believe in me not fit me in your schedule and pretend you are my follower :)


Indeed, Jesus said love me and believe in me above all... Or you'll be sent to hell and punished forever. This is like a deranged boyfriend that tells his girlfriend "I love you so much that if you don't love me back, I'll hunt you down and kill you." but even worse than that because it's imposed by an ultimate authority and the punishment is eternal.

His supposed teachings were highly contemptible. He said to hate yourself, your family, your wife, your kids and that he came to divide families. Luke14:26, Matthew 10:34-36

As if that wasn't divisive enough, he insults our integrity by teaching that we are all born wretched sinners in need of forgiveness and salvation. This is not morality, what good is it to love your neighbor as yourself if you hate yourself?

This is reflected in a disconnect many Christians have with real compassion. There is no reason to extend compassion to others if the perception of humanity is that we are all bad.
Everybody is a no good sinner and all in accordance with gods divine plan, so why should we care when something bad befalls them? It's assumed hey had it coming anyway and could be spared gods wrath.
They need only admit they are guilty sinners and accept a share in a human sacrifice to appease gods anger and gain his merciful forgiveness.
Debate Round No. 1


May i clarify what i stated in my first argument it is stated in the last sentence that Jesus says love me and believe ,,,, (if you will) not love me and believe in me because I told you so!

second of all he came here to forgive us not because we are all that bad? but rather its because he wanted to cleanse the bad in us no matter how small ,,,,, he just wanted to clean! it giving us all assurance that we are saved not we will be saved.

God stated follow my teachings if you will love me if you can believe in me and you shall be with me in the heavens.

church says Worship him love him and dedicate your life to Sunday masses :/

pray in your own time, give if you have something to give not because you are required to give, believe because you want to believe not because that's what society requires you to do.


Jesus does say love me and believe in me because I say you have to, he also promises a very sever and everlasting punishment if you don't?
There are endless versus in the new testament where eternal damnation is promised to those who won't accept his love like John 3:18. In fact loving the lord(Jesus) is the first an most important commandment stated explicitly in Matthew 22:37-39 and mark 12:28-30 As well as the penalty for not obeying gods commandments is made clear in mark 10:47-48 and many other places.

If "He came here to forgive us not because we are all bad" as you said then what did he have to come forgive us for? We are told we are all sinners in Romans 3:23 and worse that we are all guilty of the original sin of Adam as in Romans 5:12 & 5:18.

It's not just the promised reward of heaven that Jesus offers us. What Jesus introduces us to for the first time in the bible is the explicit threat of eternal damnation and hell fire in Matthew 25:46 and throughout the books of the new testament.

Your "church" interpretation is highly subjective. Perhaps define how you are using the word church, there are something like 41,000 sects of Christianity and many churches say different things. I haven't heard any church saying "believe because society says to.." but rather I hear "believe because the fate of your eternal soul depends on it."
Debate Round No. 2


my opponent does not understand the statement he wanted to cleanse us no matter how small our sins are he simply just wants to clean them.

To give my opponent a better understanding of what i mean by church, I mean Christianity,all churches, religion anything that says "stay with us and you shall be saved" the lord said "YOU ARE FORGIVEN" while they say "YOU ARE A SINNER REPENT OR PAY THE CONSEQUENCES" this whole religion stuff started even before Christ when jesus came to people who call themselves follower of God, all they did was call him a drunkard spit on him laugh at him and many more religion Is not the way to Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ is the way to Jesus Christ.

may I restate Religion began even before Christ this is all but an invention of people who want greater control of the world.

people dedicate their whole life to the church I myself is a mormon whenever my friends (catholics) ask me what my religion is all they do is laugh and say "Really ? you must kidding me" its like a battle of religion different beliefs created by simple people who think they know God ,

When christ came he distributed knowledge about God to his disciples in turn those true followers wanted to share it to the world therefore creating the bible, the bible is enough for a healthy spiritual life.


I understand very well what you meant in saying that Jesus simply came to cleanse our sins no matter how small, I just don't agree. That's not all Jesus said and he did not simply say he wanted to clean us. He said if you don't accept this offer of cleaning you will be punished forever and denied gods presence.

I do not agree with the assertion that Jesus's message was that "we are saved not will be saved". In fact he went into elaborate explanations as to what exactly we must do in order to be saved and assured us that very few people would be saved. He actually said most all people would go to hell in verses like Matthew 8:13-18.

Your correct that even the witnesses to Jesus's teachings and supposed miracles did not believe a word of it. the Pharisees who were messianic minded and looking for a savior to fulfill their own Old Testament prophecies witnessed his conjuring tricks and they didn't believe any of it. They were the only reliable witnesses, the only ones that were literate and educated, and they thought he should be arrested.
I fail to see how Joseph Smith's dubious claims are any different, The man was charged with several crimes, tried and convicted of fraud and later killed by his critics.

Christ's disciples did not create the Bible. They didn't even write anything down. The gospels were written decades after their supposed occurrences by anonymous authors, then edited and added to later. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did not write the gospels and they did not "make" Christianity.

It was emperor Constantine who oversaw the creation of the Christian Bible about 300 years after the supposed events. It was Constantine's council that cobbled together the books to create the Christian Bible as we know it. In 331 he commissioned 50 bibles to be printed and they are the earliest known Christian bibles.

If you admit that religions are all inventions of people who want greater control over populations then you must be aware that Christianity is no different. It was made the official religion of Rome by emperor Constantine in 313 A.D.. He was a power hungry thug that used it to rise to power just as you admit all religions are invented for. It simply took advantage of the Hellenistic influence prevalent at the time and and melded this influence with Judaism.

Jesus never used the word "Christianity" or said that he wanted to start a new religion in his name he said he was the Jewish messiah and saw himself as a Jew. The word Christ wasn't even invented until later from the Greek translation for messiah and Christianity means followers of the messiah.

The distinction you are trying to draw between religion or being religious and being a follower of Jesus teachings is a fallacious one. Jesus's teachings were explicitly religious.
While it's true there were religions long before Christianity that does not exclude Christianity or Jesus's teachings from also being religious and divisive in the same way.

Your analogy of these competing religions(Mormon and Catholic) being like "different beliefs created by simple people who think they know God" is good and on that point I could agree with you. But then you make the assertion that you in fact have knowledge of god and what constitutes a "highly spiritual life" as handed down to his disciples and that this knowledge should be available to us in these thoroughly non-congruent texts that were not even written by his disciples. You have not demonstrated any of these claims or how you have such knowledge.
Debate Round No. 3


A simple mind opening reason of why God is the only way to God and that Christianity,church,religion are all false:

Jesus said, "All who came before me were thieves and robbers" (John 10:8). They were wolves in sheep"s clothing (Matt. 7:15). They did not get their messages from God, and therefore they cannot lead us to God. In fact, they only lead away from God.

Now speaking of Christianity what I meant by do not believe in Christianity Is Don't call believing In God Christianity, Christianity Is like a religion we have been all collectively known as Christians with Rules, Musts,and even our prayers are memorized why not simply call it "BELIEVING IN GOD"

God makes it perfectly clear: "Salvation is of the Lord" (Jonah 2:9). If we are going to be saved from sin and know God, it must be through God"s way. We cannot know God by human wisdom or philosophy (Col. 2:8; I Cor. 1:21). Why? Because our minds are spiritually blinded by sin. The fact is, we are running from God, not trying to find Him (Rom. 3:11). There is no "sincere seeker," and even if there was, sincerity itself is not enough. We need truth, not merely sincerity. One can believe something and be sincerely wrong. "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death" (Pro. 14:12). How foolish, then, is the nonsense that says, "It doesn't matter what you believe as long as you are sincere." It does matter. It is a matter of life and death. God doesn't say, "Pick a card, any card." God says, "Follow Jesus Christ."

FOllOW JESUS not JOIN IN SOME UNITY OR GROUP which says they are the one true church the one true religion.

I myself would love going to church if the people there don't compare their religion to others this applies to all christian religions we all believe in the same God, yes some may have some add-ons but they still teach the same teachings (not all) when did Jesus Say before praying make the sign of the cross, or when you pass the church?

Remember He was called a drunkard and a fraud by religious men.

now to my statement we are already saved. remember when Jesus said It is Finished I believe he meant it.


I can see your desire to separate yourself from Christianity and other organized religions in an attempt to not be pigeon holed. There were early Christians like the Marcionites that only believed in Jesus as a savior and not in the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.

However, saying that people should follow the teachings of Jesus but Not be Christian is contradictory because Christians are commonly defined as -Believers in Jesus and his teachings.
So it's not logically consistent to say do something and not do that thing at the same time. Similarly its contradictory to say that "God is the path to God."

It also seems contradictory saying that "...our minds are spiritually binded by sin" and referencing Romans 3:11 about the universal bondage to sin, but in round 2 you were trying to rebuke my charge that Jesus teaches that we are all sinners.

Only in one of the four Gospels Jesus says "it is finished" as he dies. the other Gospels have different accounts of what he said. In Matthew and Mark he said "My God why have you forsaken me?"
But even if you interpret this as referring to fulfillment the requisite for salvation it is not sufficient in itself. His crucifixion only offered up the means by which people could achieve salvation. They still had to beg forgiveness and make the right contritions to be forgiven.
Debate Round No. 4


Jesus received the most opposition from the most religious people of his day. At it's core Jesus' gospel and the good news of the Cross is in pure opposition to self-righteousness/self-justification. Religion is man centered, Jesus is God-centered.

Religion either ends in pride or despair. Pride because you make a list and can do it and act better than everyone, or despair because you can't do your own list of rules and feel "not good enough" for God. With Jesus though you have humble confident joy because He represents you, you don't represent yourself and His sacrifice is perfect putting us in perfect standing with God the Father.

Religion says do Jesus says done, religion says slave Jesus said son.

Its like saying lets dress up the outside make it look nice and neat ,Its funny that's what they do to mummies while the corpse rots underneath, We are given this long list of chores of what were supposed to do, to be accepted by God, I understand when you said people should follow the teachings of Jesus but Not be Christian.

But think of this way during the time of Christ religious people who had no idea about the work of God, Who had control over the people because they say they are Holy, Who didn't believe in Christianity BUT! says they know God
then suddenly Jesus came along and all this religious people rejected Him saying they know the truth, And because of all the power they now acquire they were scared that the people may know the truth, So after all the happenings when Jesus rose from the dead all the people that witnessed it shared the truth to everyone until the church Discovered a way for their power over the people to remain they said Hey! lets call it Christianity so that we can still have control over the people, I know it sounds way out of line but hey I wasn't there to know the truth.

Jesus said I am the way the truth and the light (John 14:6 ) live by faith and not by sight. inside we know that there is a God and that we love him, We don't have to show that feeling by boasting that you are a very religious person you don't have to say that You pray every time You don't have to criticize other peoples religion just coz' you think you have a better one.

The church says they are the way to God But is that what God said?

as this debate comes to an end I would have to say I Need to Learn a little bit more this is my first time And I had Fun!


Well thanks fedebate, I appreciate your taking the time to debate me. Although I'm not sure if you responded to any of my criticisms. I'll wont present any new arguments here but rather try to wrangle in some if these ideas and summarize a bit.

As I previously stated I submit that the "good news" Jesus was preaching is not good. The archaic act of human sacrifice is not at all a good let alone perfect, it is contemptible to think that killing an innocent person will appease an angry god.
Likewise I don't accept any of your definitional word games that you neglected clarify even when I stated my objections directly. Jesus's teachings are Religious and just as "God centered" as organized religions
it ends the same way as you described "in either pride or despair". It is completely prideful and narcissistic to say that God/Jesus, the creator of the universe personally represents you. People should represent themselves and they should not be relieved of their sins. They should have to live and die with what they have done or there is no real moral accountability.

I did not say that "you should follow the teachings of Jesus not religion." that has been your line, I simply said that "I can see your desire to...not be pigeonholed". But I totally disagree with the premises. As I said(which you didn't even acknowledge) there is no difference between believing in and following the teachings of Jesus and being religious or Christian. They are the same. It is a false distinction that you are trying to draw.

And you description of early Christianity has been thoroughly inaccurate with assertions like "Jesus's disciples wrote the bible" this entire debate and your depiction in round 5 is no different. You talk about "all the happenings when Jesus rose from the dead and ALL the people that witnessed it"... You must mean the two witnesses (Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:1) which were frightened hysterical women who's testimony wouldn't even have been heard in court at the time or the events surrounding the resurrection story like the earthquake that split open all the graves and all the good people were resurrected, walked around the streets of Jerusalem and greeted their friends Matthew 27:51-53. They kept track of earthquakes back then, There were historians in Jerusalem at that time. If such events occurred they would have made mention of them. Needless to say such events should have shown up on the front page of the Jerusalem Times.

Your continued use of phrases like "inside we know that there is a God and that we love him." are completely void of content to someone like myself who doesn't believe any of it and you can't demonstrate any of it. It's odd that you should say due to Jesus "You don't have to criticize other peoples religion just coz' you think you have a better one." when Jesus himself repeatedly criticized other religions.

You have given the incorrect usage of words Christianity and religion as well as the incorrect authorship of the Bible.

I have argued that not just organize religion but jesus's core teachings that are divisive, damage personal integrity and morality as well as shown your logical inconsistencies and contradictions throughout the debate and you did not respond to any of them. It has been my intention to show that contrary to your statement at the onset that Jesus should not be "the only thing we believe in", but rather that we would be better off to not believe in him at all.

Thanks again, for participating.
Debate Round No. 5
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by skukian.warrior 5 years ago
The focus of this question is mostly right, but if it were a little more specific and with a little more background, then it would make more sense to those who've never seriously read the Bible. Okay, so the reason that we should believe in Jesus over religion is because He came to abolish religion. The Jews of that time period were heavily steeped in a system of rules, which is the definition of religion, throwing away any kind of a relationship with God (which is the point of existence for a Christian) for meticulously following thousands of little requirements that they'd invented themselves. They originally got their rules from the Mosaic law, which was something like three hundred individual laws. Then they elaborated and made many, many more related rules. Jesus had the strongest relationship with God that anyone on earth has ever had, stronger than any marriage bond, and so He knew that the Jewish religious leaders were horribly corrupt. He challenged them and their system of rules at every opportunity, only adhering to the original law of God. Not the letter of the law, but the Spirit of the law, which measures the motives behind your actions, not the actions in and of themselves. The problem with the Jewish leaders' motives was that they were trying to get to heaven through works. They figured that if they were good enough, they'd be let in. God doesn't work like that. There is absolutely nothing that you can do, in and of yourself, that could ever earn you salvation. God does all of the work. It's committing yourself to Him, accepting Him into your heart, letting Him mold or completely cut away EVERY single aspect of your life that saves you. Putting your entire trust in Him means doing literally anything and everything that He asks. One of His prophets in the Old Testament even married a prostitute at His command (there was a good reason for that). Sorry if you think that I digressed. All of these things point to the fact that Jesus > Religion.
Posted by devient.genie 5 years ago
Theres a reason hospitals hire surgeons instead of girl scout troop leaders.

Its the same reason the government gives research grants to scientists Not pastors :)
Posted by daerice 5 years ago
I think the initial question needs to be teased apart. The first consideration would be: Is this question only directed toward other Christians? The instigator sets up an either/or suggestion that may not be relevant to non-Christians. I don't care for religion, nor do I believe in Jesus, so the question is moot to me.
Instigator might want to consider if this normative statement is meant to indicate that ALL people should believe in Jesus, OR more likely: that practicing Christians need to redirect their focus.

If the instigator is directing this statement to all people, they may wish to consider that some people are simply not moved by the words or Jesus and do not find wisdom, solace or guidance in the Christian religion.
Posted by devient.genie 5 years ago
Conspiracies 6:14--The longest lasting conspiracy to date has some pretty outlandish claims, and a plethora of believers.

There are millions upon millions who claim the reason the earth and humans are here is because a slave supporting sexist created them and used human sacrifice to show love and forgiveness. These conspiracy theorists also claim that the "reason for everything" is admittedly jealous :)

They base their claims on the fact that the "reason for everything" came to earth and took the form of a man named jessie, or josey, or jesus, one of those. These conspiracy theorists also claim he walked on water, and even rose from the dead after being killed 3 days prior.

The proof for all this is traced back to an ancient book that is on the bestseller list, I think its called the holy binky or something along those lines :)

NOPE 7:59--Accepting evolution and also claiming a savior is still delusional. Its delusional like claiming to be the number one Yankees fan and wearing Red Sox gear, while claiming to be the number one Yankess fan.

Our understandings of evolution have done nothing but improve exponentially with the more evidence we discover, such as mapping the entire 6 billion nucleotide human genome for the first time ever, as in the history of all 21 centuries, as in Game Over, proving evolution doesnt prove the reason for everything cares what days you hold holy in its honor :)

Non theistic countries dont have these trivial insecurities that ultimitely lead to denying human rights, hurting people, and telling lies. Check out the 2009 Global Peace Index.

Really smart people did some lengthy investigative work that show a clear correlation between Non violence and Non theism, go ahead and veryify that, and then ask yourself this so you can catch up, when is it going to finally be considered ridiculous to everyone, 100 yrs, 500 yrs, 5000 yrs......
Posted by devient.genie 5 years ago
When the holy binky first came on the scene thousands of years ago, written as the known word of the pansy, there were those who doubted the reason for the universe and life was a petty real estate broker involved in the land of israel.

Back then questioning lifes origins could prove deadly, and Not in a fast bullet to the head death. Stoned, burned, hung, drown, tortured first because of the evilness you possess of course.

Now thousands of years later, there are STILL those who question lifes origins. Those who activiely dedicate their lives to questioning lifes origins, Not just sitting on the couch thinking, actually sticking their heads in million dollar microscopes and telescopes and all kinds of scopes to see the universe up close.

These humans who ask the most meaningful questions about the universe and life are called scientists, they are the most skeptical bunch you will meet, because simply claiming that something is truth wont cut it. Scientists will scrutinize and dissect and observe and experiment for many years sometimes to draw the correct conclusions. Science is always adapting to new evidence as it is self correcting in this manner.

When a new discovery is made, it leads to a new better understanding of the universe and the cosmos. This deeper understanding leads to advances in medicen, technology, and an overall more comfortable lifestyle. Confusing science with some type of religion that requires belief or is just a version of the truth, is the farthest from the truth.

Science does not require faith, it is not something you believe in like god or bigfoot or aliens, science is something you understand because its validity is seen through evidence, experiments, data, and clear reason.

Over 150 yrs of scrutiny, and denying evolution is a lie. We dont believe the sun is 93 million miles away, we understand it is thru scientific research. We dont believe the earth rotates, we understand thru observation that this takes place eve
Posted by KroneckerDelta 5 years ago
You have failed to define what you mean by "religion". As best I can tell, you really mean we should believe in Jesus not the church. I do not even understand how one can believe in Jesus without believing in a religion. Even if you say you do not need to follow church doctrine but rather have a personal relationship with Jesus--isn't that still a religion?

Seems to me this would have been more appropriate as a discussion rather than a 5 round debate (but then again I'm new here too, so what do I know).
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by KroneckerDelta 5 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro failed to prove you should believe in Jesus. This point was conceded because he never addressed the whole "believe in me or go to hell", which Con supported with Bible verses. I think Conduct was good on both sides and I think neither had stellar spelling/grammar. Both used the Bible as a source. I agree with some others, the real issue this debate was presumably about was never addressed. Con was just able to make better arguments for why you shouldn't believe in Jesus at won basically on technicality.
Vote Placed by FREEDO 5 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Spelling and grammar is obvious. There is no clear resolution to this debate so both sides are pretty much just shaming each other the whole way through. However, Con did a lot better with the little substance that existed. Con's arguments were clearer, made stronger assertions and were better backed up, particularly with scripture, than Pro's arguments. Con also made several strong unsubstantiated claims that could have spiced the debate up but Pro lacked in any real defense.
Vote Placed by Deadlykris 5 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro fielded an indefensible premise, that Jesus and religion are separable concepts. While it IS possible to have religion without Jesus, it is NOT possible to believe in Jesus without having a religion. Con did a good job of demonstrating this, while Pro has no viable argument.
Vote Placed by morgan2252 5 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Good conduct on both sides. Con had better spelling and grammar, and con did a good job of composing his arguments and making them convincing.