The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Losing
14 Points
The Contender
cody30228
Con (against)
Winning
29 Points

bible = fallible

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/1/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,209 times Debate No: 1229
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (12)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

the outrageousness speaks for itself.

---When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

--Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

---Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the law says. And if they desire to learn anything, let thorn ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church."
I Cor 14:34.35

----"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion." Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB

-----Exodus 22:16, where we read "If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed, and lies with her, he shall give the marriage present for her, and make her his wife." But when we look at the verse immediately following, we get a whole different picture. In verse 17 we read, "If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equivalent to the marriage present for virgins."

--Kill Your Neighbors
(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

---2 Kings 2:23-24
"Elisha Is Jeered
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths."
Now, granted,they made fun of him. But c'mon. Plus, why doesn't this tstuff happen nowadays?

even if these are not the way things are done anymore, it still does not answer why it ever was, and by "God"'s command
cody30228

Con

I apologize, I just wrote pages of an argument and my computer froze. So here is teh quicky version

1. LOGIC FLAWED
a small % of flawed passages do not make the Bible flawed
if we followed your logic
all americans are overweight
not true
using your logic, it would be, because a small % of the population represented everyone

2. PASSAGES NOT SELF-EXPLANATORY

3. PASSAGES NOT FLAWED
once again, shorter version
morality is inter-subjective
my morals do not coincide with yours
the time of the Bible had a much different moral code. Exmaple, women were property.
Thus to refute the passages, YOU MUST NOT USE A SENSE OF MORALITY BUT ATTACK THE REASONING.
the reasoning of all the passages are good

once again I apologize for the brevity
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

your argument about the weight of americans does not fly.
all i have to do to show the bible is fallible is to show one error. i showed a few. that is not the same as me saying that all americans are fat by showing a few.... actually, what's synonomys is me refuting the notion that "all americans are not fat" by showing a few who are fat.
you're clearly confused.

also, you have not explained why morality can be different today than it was then.
or, you do not explain why christians don't believe woman are property.
---again, you seem confused because you're saying that you have that morality that woman are like property etc, but then you act like things have changed and it doesn't matter.
what does woman being property have to do with forcing them to marry a rapist? why would God want to treat woman like property? at least give some arguments.
cody30228

Con

I apologize, I thought that was resolution was trying to prove that the bible was all wrong. I did not predict that you would make the debate so abusive towards the negative side. if you give yourself the unequal burden of simply proving that one thing in the bible is wrong, I would have to counter it like this. Bust first, let me respond to your comments

"also, you have not explained why morality can be different today than it was then"

Morality changes over the years. This is simple. It appears you do not understand what morality is.
Morality - a sense of right or wrong
You do no think that a person's sense of right or wrong has not changed over history? Well let me give you a few examples
1800 - Nothing wrong with enslaving another race (morality)
2000 - Slavery bad

1600 - Women are property
2000 - Women are people

1000 - Kings are good
2000 - Kings are bad

1000 BC - Women must marry rapist
2000 AD - Women shouldn't be forced to marry.
If you can not see that morality, or our sense of right and wrong changes over history, you are in the fault here.

"you do not explain why Christians don't believe woman are property."

Look at the morality argument above. People believe a difference in what is right and wrong. Currently, the Islamic faith says that women are some what as you would call property. Are they wrong? They would say no, you would say yes. I have already proved why it doesn't matter what Christians believe because YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY IF IT IS GOOD OR BAD.

"saying that you have that morality that woman are like property etc, but then you act like things have changed and it doesn't matter. "

I have no idea when I said this or when I matters. I say that morality changes, and that you can't you your current sense of morals to judge others.

"what does woman being property have to do with forcing them to marry a rapist? why would God want to treat woman like property? at least give some arguments"

Like I said, if God is trying to tell people that women should marry a rapist, why is that wrong? You failed to prove that those verses are wrong! If can not prove they are wrong, you lose. And you have failed to prove they are wrong.

So this is why the Bible is not fallible
1.) Interpretation - The Bible is supposed to be timeless. In order to be so, you must interpret the verses and the underlying theme. The moral of the story we can call it. Why was the verse written, and what can it mean in today's standards.

2.) Right or Wrong - The only way to prove something is wrong, is to look at if it was wrong in it's time. Were the verses wrong? You can't prove it, so you can't prove the resolution
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

so, your position is what many hardcore christians would call "relativistic". for example, slavery was okay then, but not it's not okay.

is this your argument? it's the way you're arguing.

if God thinks slavery is wrong, then it's wrong now and always. that's a fundamental judgment call on my part, granted. there's not much to debate on the matter. it'd seem that you don't believe that slavery would be okay, as long as that was the cultural trend at the time, or that murder would be okay etc.
i doubt it's your argument, and that you're just confusing your arguments.

you might be arguing that given the cultures that beleved that stuff, God was simply catering to their beliefs, or something. But, even those arguments do not explain why God would mandate things to adhere to a culture that is bad. in the end, i cannot find a reasonable way of saying these verses make sense, though, and that's why i have the position.
for you, i think you probably want to rethink your arguments.

your ultimate argument doesn't fly either. we can assume as the first premise that the bible is true, and everything from that must be true. or, we can assume that morality truth is the same today as was it always was, and so that the bible is not completely true.
you are not explaining why we shouldn't advocate women marrying their rapists if they did back then? or why would this be acceptable to change, isn't morality timesless? do you actually believe that woman shgould marry them?
cody30228

Con

Braking what you said down
1. "if God thinks slavery is wrong, then it's wrong now and always."

- you have completely ignored my point from the very beginning. What is right or wrong! you have failed to define for me what is right or wrong, thus, you have yet to prove that anything is wrong with the Bible.

2. "you might be arguing that given the cultures that believed that stuff, God was simply catering to their beliefs, or something. But, even those arguments do not explain why God would mandate things to adhere to a culture that is bad"

- this time, you ignored my interpretation argument. You never look beyond the words and look towards the true meaning. Because of this, you fail to understand what the verses really say. It isn't God conforming to bad cultures, it's different cultures using God's word and interpreting it differently, thus yielding the false conclusion that they are "bad". They are bad only because they are different?

3. "we can assume as the first premise that the bible is true, and everything from that must be true. or, we can assume that morality truth is the same today as was it always was, and so that the bible is not completely true.
you are not explaining why we shouldn't advocate women marrying their rapists if they did back then? or why would this be acceptable to change, isn't morality timeless? do you actually believe that woman should marry them?"

- this is a complex argument you are trying to make that I'm not quite so sure I understand. The first premise is true, not the second. The Bible is true. Moral truth does not stay the same. So you just proved my point. Thank you. Morality is not timeless. Once, again, you have failed to prove anything was bad.

*******KEY POINTS!*********

1. Morals Change
2. Bible interpreted differently
3. Nothing in Bible proved wrong by opponent

Thank you, and good debate
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by friar_zero 9 years ago
friar_zero
It may be shameless self promotion, but I have covered the idea of biblical inerrancy on my website: http://friar-zero.blogspot.com...

My challenge is that the bible cannot be the product of an omniscient god. Check it out, and feel free to challenge me.
Posted by ImAPanicBomb447 9 years ago
ImAPanicBomb447
I apologize for using "he".
Posted by ImAPanicBomb447 9 years ago
ImAPanicBomb447
Pro could have easily won this debate by defining his position better. If he was trying to argue that the bible is MORALLY incorrect, or inconsistent with todays beliefs, or something more specific he would have had an easy win.

However, your position "the bible is fallible" just poses the idea that things in the bible are "wrong"... I would, as I think your opponent did, take this to mean that the things presented as fact in the bible are actually incorrect.
Posted by FrontLineConservative 9 years ago
FrontLineConservative
It's all about context, context, context. You have an argument if you've studied the Bible in depth, but picking and choosing verses won't get you anywhere. God doesn't contradict Himself, because if He did He would not be God.
Posted by SperoAmicus 9 years ago
SperoAmicus
dairygirl4u2c, you really need to show the inconsistency of the passages with infallibility, the passages alone really do not speak for themselves.

You also need to address whose definition of infallibility you are referring to. It would, for instance, be very easy to reply arguing that any command of God is infallible, or that God has somehow changed between the Old and New Testaments.

Also, if infallibility were to refer to morality, then you have no inconsistency. Simply nothing there is listed as a moral code - the closest you can come to is a few which are listed as Positive Law for the ancient Hebrews. Positive Law and Moral Law are wildly different things.

I would be happy to debate you again on the Bible, but not if your only argument is going to the extent of quoting a verse and screaming "Gotcha!"

You have to debate as well.
Posted by solo 9 years ago
solo
I think I'll leave these two variations alone.
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