The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Losing
13 Points
The Contender
dthmstr254
Con (against)
Winning
35 Points

bible is more likely than not fallible

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/5/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,617 times Debate No: 1367
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (17)
Votes (15)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

the outrageousness speaks for itself.

---When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

--Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

---Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the law says. And if they desire to learn anything, let thorn ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church."
I Cor 14:34.35

----"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion." Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB

-----Exodus 22:16, where we read "If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed, and lies with her, he shall give the marriage present for her, and make her his wife." But when we look at the verse immediately following, we get a whole different picture. In verse 17 we read, "If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equivalent to the marriage present for virgins."

--Kill Your Neighbors
(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

---2 Kings 2:23-24
"Elisha Is Jeered
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths."
Now, granted,they made fun of him. But c'mon. Plus, why doesn't this tstuff happen nowadays?

even if these are not the way things are done anymore, it still does not answer why it ever was, and by "God"'s command

now, it could be that some of these were necessary to counter a bad culture... like if a woman is shunned for being raped then marrying the rapist might be what's best for her. but, that sort or reasoning does not show why she had to shave her head, or could suddenly be okay to go back to society when the rapist treats her bad. more likely than not, these sorts of passages are just looking at her as if she's damaged goods that needs to marry because she's damaged, and be shamed.

more likely than not, the bible is not infallible.

plus here is more evidence in that regard... http://www.evilbible.com...

not saying it's necessarily fallible... but it appears to be the case.
dthmstr254

Con

Now, for one, Dairygirl apparently lacks knowledge of the culture of the time, so I will explain the piece of culture that would easily justify the verses that are culturally related. As to the others, she is guilty of just taking the verses she wants and not taking them into context.

As to the first part, the rules listed related to female slaves, which is mistranslated in her version and the KJV as slave. Firstly, the NIV correctly translates the word Doulos (Septuagint, Greek, meaning a servant) as servant from the original Greek. It mentions that men are released from servanthood every 6 years. This is not 6 years into their servitude, but a holiday that occurred every 6 years. It is mentioned in a few verses prior to the quoted verses that servants are to be released in the seventh year and all debts between families are to be counted null and void. This included even people who had been entered into servanthood the day before this holiday and debts made the same day.

However, women were not included in this because at the time, women were not allowed to take up jobs, and thus could not get money, and the standing of that woman would be too low for a man at the time to take the risk of marrying her, unless he was completely enamored. These laws were designed to protect the women at the time.

Next is the Deuteronomy verse related to the punishment for raping a virgin woman. There was another reason for this law. Virginity was considered the number one reason for marrying a woman. This was because of the importance of genealogies at the time. You married a virgin, thereby having no contenders for the son or daughter that she bears. Stealing a woman's virginity then would lower the dowry price that a suitor had to pay to marry her. Because of this, the rapist usually had to pay the full dowry price, and if he refused to marry her, he would then be subject to death by stoning.

Now the fun one, from Corinthians. This was referring to public speech, if you would care to look at the context of the verses. The verses directly before and after talk about the rules of prophets speaking in the church. This was the first verse Dairygirl takes out of context.

To the Deuteronomy verse, would it be better for them to leave her to die? Remember there were no jobs for women then, and not many Israelite men would marry someone from a country that has hated the Israelites.

Exodus 22 is again the same as the Deuteronomy verse, thus I shall not repeat myself.

Did you care to read the verses prior to Exodus 32:26? Again you take out the FACT that they were deliberately disobeying the Lord. God has to be JUST as well as loving. You again take things out of context.

You begin your actual argument quoting from part of Elisha's life. The reason for such harsh punishment is because the Israelites were extremely stubborn. Two days after God causes the earth to swallow up a murderer and his followers the Israelites are back at their old tricks again. Like drug addicts, the Israelites were pathologically stupid about following the rules. Desperate problems require seemingly desperate solutions. Otherwise, it would be like dominoes. If you don't stop the first domino, and it hits 5 or 6 dominos going different directions, then how do you expect to stop the rest? Preventative management is something taught in business classes and medicine. If you wait two weeks to remove a splinter, then it will be infected and you risk losing the finger. If God hadn't dealt with sin like He did in the early parts of the Bible, then Israel would have been disbanded.

Your next point is about a raped woman being required to shave her head, which is completely misquoted, which is an unprofessional way to debate. That was a woman who was captured in war, not a raped woman. Get that part right.

As to the whole of the first round, it does not prove fallibility. whether a rule is just or unjust does not make the Bible fallible. Fallibility would be better proved via showing contradictions, which you have not.
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

dairygirl4u2c forfeited this round.
dthmstr254

Con

I am posting this to keep myself from forfeiting the round. Dairygirl stated in the comments that this was worth responding to, but apparently, she was either bored or is horrible at following up on her promises, as there seem to be a cornucopia of forfeited rounds in her debates. I hope she will post in this round so I have something to respond to.
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

dairygirl4u2c forfeited this round.
dthmstr254

Con

I guess I win then??? As closing... well, I don't have anything to wrap up, now do I? I will just type this to satisfy the computer character counter.
Debate Round No. 3
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by spinaltap 9 years ago
spinaltap
The Bible and Koran are an amalgulmation of man-made fairy tales. Both were written, edited and pieced together (by men) well after their leaders had their so called revelations. The book used by Mormons, dictated by Joseph Smith, is the most comedic religious book of all.

Smith was a charlatan with great talents. He couldn't write so he had to dictate his dribble to others. He tricked them into working for him by telling them that would share the golden tablets with them. He never shared these tables with anyone. They never appeared. He continued to have revelations whenever it suited him.

The Koren was initially conveyed orally and didn't exist in an official written form. The leaders figured they better get something down on paper before the knowledge was lost. They pieced together scraps of knowledge from here and there. This was done many many years after the great M lived.

The Bible was pieced together decades after the great JC lived. The powers trashed several other gospels because of obvious conflicts and kept the 4 that had some inherent flaws but were deemed as passable.

All of these so called godly books are man-made fabrications. They were not delivered from god straight into text. They were interpreted, edited and manipulated.
Posted by attrition 9 years ago
attrition
Your basis for you entire argument is flawed. Either God wrote the Bible, or, which is generally more accepted, man wrote the Bible, and to the faithful, were inspired by God. Either way, if this book was to be the guide by which we as humans avoid the fiery pits of hell for eternity, well..I'v said it before, we are all fucked. There is no possible way that we can know for sure what exactly is meant when we read the scripture. Every sect of Christianity has a variation, a spin, a different interpretion, or a greater focus on a certain area. Many people know that Catholics, to Baptists, to Mormons have wide views on the practice of the religion of Jesus. They can't all be right. Someone's going to hell! (according to the Bible of course, I know there is no such thing) And as to your second comment, how do you keep the Israelites in line,...uhhh, Im God. All knowing, all powerful, omnipresent...I can do whatever I want. That's how you do it. Why doesn't God send down from heavan an updated Bible...Bible 2.0. I mean, he could just EMAIL it to everybody, so that way we know he's real and we get a modern version of "How not to go to Hell for Dummies"
Posted by dthmstr254 9 years ago
dthmstr254
Besides, how do you keep the Israelites in line while you wait on modern culture to arrive? Just let them do as they wish? lol.
Posted by dthmstr254 9 years ago
dthmstr254
However, you have forgotten, as I stated, that there is no way to do such with humans. Unless you are saying that there are to be NO laws, then your argument is null and void. You forget that one who created languages would use all types of language tools, from literal to figurative. It only requires one know how to read to tell he difference between literal and figurative usages. In this case, the translators read the Greek and translated correctly. Besides, the vote still goes to the one who bettrer defended their position, and if she doesn't respond, obviously, she can't have won.
Posted by attrition 9 years ago
attrition
dsthmstr254, despite your attempts to justify the verses in the Bible that were quoted, a being with as much power as the Bible portrays God to have, omniscience being the main one, God should have greater insight to modern day sensibilities. The bible should me completely universal and not have references to local, periodic issues such as to how much a man is to be fined after he rapes a woman. That is just so...short sighted. How about not allowing rape or murder under any circumstance? How are we then to judge ANY part of the Bible and it's merits based on the notion that the bible has references that only make sense in a historic point of view. The Bible is either, literal, divine holy scripture that should be followed and believed line by line or, it is figurative, to which nothing can be taken seriously. You can't have it both ways. Either way, with so much up to interpretation, the Bible is completely fallible. Defined: fallible \FAL-uh-bul\, adjective:
1. Liable to make a mistake.
2. Liable to be inaccurate or erroneous.
Posted by dthmstr254 9 years ago
dthmstr254
wow, the one she said was worth responding to and she drops off the face of the earth.
Posted by dthmstr254 9 years ago
dthmstr254
I am wondering if Dairygirl is going to respond or not. 14 hours left.
Posted by dthmstr254 9 years ago
dthmstr254
hmmm, could we take the catfight here to your own debates instead of turning the comment board into a wildfire? It would make things a lot easier.

Dairy, thanks for the compliment. However Rousseau puts it, these questions and remarks of yours are questions on more than a few people's minds. Although they are questions about God's mercy more than the trustworthiness of the Bible, they are there nonetheless.
Posted by Rousseau 9 years ago
Rousseau
Yet you lost on arguments? Could that mean your argumentd are jokes?
Posted by dairygirl4u2c 9 years ago
dairygirl4u2c
this is the only person with a response worth responding to.

all your other responses have been jokes.
15 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by U.n 1 year ago
U.n
dairygirl4u2cdthmstr254Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture.
Vote Placed by Tatarize 8 years ago
Tatarize
dairygirl4u2cdthmstr254Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:13 
Vote Placed by Mangani 8 years ago
Mangani
dairygirl4u2cdthmstr254Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by YummyYummCupcake 9 years ago
YummyYummCupcake
dairygirl4u2cdthmstr254Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Derrida 9 years ago
Derrida
dairygirl4u2cdthmstr254Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by mattresses 9 years ago
mattresses
dairygirl4u2cdthmstr254Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Chob 9 years ago
Chob
dairygirl4u2cdthmstr254Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Pricetag 9 years ago
Pricetag
dairygirl4u2cdthmstr254Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by GBretz 9 years ago
GBretz
dairygirl4u2cdthmstr254Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by nicpoulos 9 years ago
nicpoulos
dairygirl4u2cdthmstr254Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03