The Instigator
vi_spex
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
ssadi
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points

cant divide or multiply with 0 and 1

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
ssadi
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/14/2016 Category: Science
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 906 times Debate No: 86582
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (14)
Votes (1)

 

vi_spex

Pro

0*1(1)
0/1(1)

1/0(1)

heehhe
ssadi

Con

I accept!

I asked Pro under comments to remove "1/0(1)" part and change the title to "Can't divide or multiply 0 by 1." They responded (6th comment):

"hm i grant that if you can beat the headline on any level you win".

So I will argue that we can divide or multiply 0 by any non-zero finite real number, including 1.

DEFINITIONS

Divide (v):
To divide X by Y means to separate X into Y equal parts; the result is the value, quantity, etc. of one of those parts.

Multiply (v): To multiply X by Y means to increase the value, quantity, etc. of X to Y times as big as itself or to add Y of X.

If Pro has any objection to definitions given, then we can discuss them under comments and reconsider any point. Pro can directly post their arguments if they agree with given definitions.

No new argument is allowed in last round.

I will be looking for Pro's opening arguments and wish them best of luck!
Debate Round No. 1
vi_spex

Pro

you cant divide something by nothing
ssadi

Con

1) 0 divided by x

Let's assume that x is a finite non-zero real number.

0/x = 0 => Zero can be divided into x 0s and the result of which is 0, according to definition of division!

Example:

I have 0 money. Three people want me to give them money. So I share my 0 money to them by giving 0 money to each of them. My 0 money was divided into 3 zeros. That is the language of mathematics. You don't say I can't give you anything, because I have nothing. Mathematics considers that "nothing" as "something" and tells you that you can divide that "nothing" into as many "nothing"s as you want.. Does that make sense? Of course it does.

=> Therefore, we can divide 0 by any finite non-zero real number!

2) 0 multiplied by y

Let's assume that y is a finite non-zero real number.

0*y=0 => We can add y 0s and the result of which is zero (OR y times as big as zero).

Example:

10*5=10+10+10+10+10=50.
3*5=3+3+3+3+3=15.
1*5=1+1+1+1+1=5.

Similarly,
0*5=5*0=0+0+0+0+0=0!

=> Therefore, 0 can be multiplied by any finite non-zero (this is not necessary though) real number!

Please recall that I win this debate if I show that we can at least do one of the following operations:

a) Multiplying 0 by something.
b) Dividing 0 by something.
c) Multiplying something by 0.
d) Dividing something by 0.

I showed and explained through examples that we can do (a), (b), and (c). Therefore, Pro looses the debate if they don't refute y arguments for (a), (b), and (c), regardless of what they argue about (d).

I will look forward to Pro's reply and wish them best of luck!


Debate Round No. 2
vi_spex

Pro

you cant multiply nothing

0=false
1=true(something)

pick up 0 sodas from the floor

the value of money is false, the bill is true, and you handed them none

0=0

3=1+1+1

sense=true

true=answer=1

1+4+0+8(1+4+8)=13

add no sodas to no sodas.. you have not added anything anywhere
ssadi

Con

I thank Pro for their rebuttals in R3.


NOTE

"=":
means "is equal to"
"=/=": means "is not equal to"


REBUTTALS TO REBUTTALS OF PRO

Now I will answer all of Pro's rebuttals/counter arguments.

Pro:
"you cant multiply nothing"

Answer: We can multiply "nothing", but the result will be "nothing", as I showed in R2.


Pro:

"
0=false
1=true(something)"

Answer:

One can use "0" to mean "false" and "1" to mean "true" ONLY AFTER s/he defines them that way and notes that they will use them as such. No such thing was defined by Pro before, so we will ignore them.

In addition,

0=zero and zero=/=false => therefore, 0=/=false!

1=false(something) is also correct. For example, 1 false answer!


Pro:
"pick up 0 sodas from the floor"

Answer: I can do that in many ways. For example;

- There is a soda on the floor. I want to pick it up. But when I do the action of picking up, I miss the soda and come back with empty hand. How many sodas did I pick up? I picked up 0 sodas!

- There are sodas, apples, and oranges on the floor. I pick up 2 oranges and 3 apples. How many sodas, how many oranges, and how many apples did I pick up? I picked up 0 sodas, 2 oranges, and 3 apples. How many sodas did I pick up? I picked up 0 sodas!


Pro: "the value of money is false, the bill is true {1}, and you handed them none {2}"

Answer:

{1}:
OK, my fault.. You can change the word "money" to "$", "bill" etc. if you want. Note that it doesn't change the result.

{2}: "Coincidentally" in mathematics "none"="nothing"=0. So, Pro is right, I handed them none i.e., I handed them 0 dollars. As Pro admits here, I can hand them 0$.


Pro: "0=0"

Answer: 5*0=0*5=0=0+0+0+0+0=0 is also true!


Pro: "3=1+1+1"

Answer: 3*1=3=1+1+1 is also true!


Pro:

"sense=true

true=answer=1"

Answer: sense=ture=answer=1 -> sense=1? What does it mean?


Pro: "1+4+0+8(1+4+8)=13"

Answer:

i) Let's write "true" instead of "1" and "false" instead of "0" to see if Pro's claims about 0 and 1 make sense:

1+4+0+8=true+4+false+8=true+false+12=13?

If we assume that true and false cancel out, then true+false+12=12. This shows that Pro's claims are contradictory to each other.

ii) In mathematics, 1+4+0+8(1+4+8)=1+4+0+8*(1+4+8)=5+8*13=5+104=109.


Pro: "add no sodas to no sodas.. you have not added anything anywhere"

Answer: Mathematically speaking, by adding no sodas to no sodas I get no sodas. I can add anything to anything anywhere, including adding nothing to nothing (which gives nothing).


CONCLUSION

I have refuted all of Pro's objections about my arguments. In addition, Pro has not yet provided any direct argument to prove that we cannot divide or multiply 0 by something. And according to rules, they cannot provide any new argument in R4.

I wish Pro best of luck!
Debate Round No. 3
vi_spex

Pro

multiplication is a form of adding.. you can not add nothing

sure i agree that if you define 0 as something then your math can fit, you can add, because its not 0.. but 0 is a default value..
like something is 1

esentially what you are trying to do, can never equate.. it is an error
(1+1+1+0)1+1+1=3
0 dosnt fit in the equation

answers are true.. can be is not an answer unless the question is to question the question

that" i picked up 0 sodas" statement, is the lack of solidity of language where as equations are rigid

0=false

hm it can be true that i lied, but its still true that lies are false.. you cant put a lie on a table

thats the thing.. you cant hand them 0 bills.. or handing them 0 bills is not even handing them 1 bill.. bills are true
bill=something

5=1+1+1+1+1=not 0

0 can not equate, it isnt even in the equation.. put 2 sodas on a table, and put 0 sodas on the table, and you have added 2

3*1(3).. dosnt equate

1=true
sense=true

it can be true that some one lied, and then is the answer

false does not equate to true.. or lies dosnt become true once you lie, then i would lie konstantly

how do you add false to the equation that fits with, 1 tomato+4 tomato+8tomato.. it just isnt in there..esentially you can argue that within any equation is 1000 zeroes.. like 1+1+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0=2..

1+4+0+8.. this dosnt equate with 0, 0 dosnt go through, there is nothing to go through, its like slapping your cousin with your invisible hand that has absolutly no effect..

you dont get no sodas.. from adding no sodas to no sodas..

you can not add nothing to nothing.. equations or answers are true

conclusion: pointless debate and way of looking at math, you can use it for nothing, and nothing is not something, something is true
ssadi

Con

I thank Pro for posting their arguments in R4.


Pro: "
sure i agree that if you define 0 as something then your math can fit, you can add, {1} because its not 0 {2}.. but 0 is a default value..{3}"

Answer: I used "mathematically" or "in mathematics" etc. several times. The field which deals with addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division is generally called "mathematics". And in mathematics 0 is defined as "something" that represents "nothing", as I have already mentioned.

Recall that the headline is "cant divide or multiply by 0 and 1". Pro doesn't mention what 0 means, neither in the title nor in the first round. Therefore, I take it as a mathematical representation for "nothing", which is the most proper definition of 0. And in mathematics we can add 0 to, subtract it from, divide or multiply it by any finite non-zero real number. And as I showed above, if you don't pick up any soda, then its mathematical expression would be as: "you picked up 0 sodas". Picking up zero sodas in meathematics exactly means picking up no sodas. So, you can pick up no sodas simply by not picking up any soda.

Pro (under comments before I accepted the debate): "i grant that if you can beat the headline on any level you win".


CONCLUSION

I showed that we can divide or multiply 0 by any finite non-zero real number. Pro, on the other hand, didn't provide any direct argument to prove his proposition. In addition, they didn't provide any sensible rebuttal, which were also refuted in round 3. What Pro provides in R4 either don't make sense or don't refute my arguments.


I would like to thank Pro for this debate. I also thank the voters for their time, consideration and voting in advance.

Vote Con please!
Debate Round No. 4
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Stonehe4rt 1 year ago
Stonehe4rt
If you think about it, the formula to create a Big Bang is very simple.... All it would take is: Something (Doesnt matter what, could be a pencil) and Absolute Nothing (0 Dimension, No Space, No Time, Nothing...)

If you could somehow put something INTO nothing, you would get the Big Bang, as Stated X/0 = Infinity.

Just a neat thought.
Posted by Stonehe4rt 1 year ago
Stonehe4rt
If you think about it, the formula to create a Big Bang is very simple.... All it would take is: Something (Doesnt matter what, could be a pencil) and Absolute Nothing (0 Dimension, No Space, No Time, Nothing...)

If you could somehow put something INTO nothing, you would get the Big Bang, as Stated X/0 = Infinity.

Just a neat thought.
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
1=1

matter can not be destroyed
Posted by Stonehe4rt 1 year ago
Stonehe4rt
This doesnt really have to do with the debate, but it does at the same time. Because it has to due with a number being divided by zero. So going by the theory that everything can get smaller, when we try to divide something into nothing we will divide it infinitely to always getting closer to zero but never achieving it. Hence X\0 = Infinity. Or is this flawed thinking?
Posted by ssadi 1 year ago
ssadi
@Peepette
Thank you for vote, appreciated!
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
or an invisible hand slapping your cousin but it has absolutly no effect
Posted by ssadi 1 year ago
ssadi
Dear Heirio,

I know that. But we can "ultiply by zero. Pro grants that I win the debate if I can beat the headline on any level. For example, if I show that we can multiply by zero, then I win!
Posted by Heirio 1 year ago
Heirio
You can't divide by zero as far as I know.
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
hm i grant that if you can beat the headline on any level you win
Posted by ssadi 1 year ago
ssadi
Can you change the topic to "Can't divide or multiply 0 by 1" and you remove 1/0?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Peepette 1 year ago
Peepette
vi_spexssadiTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: This debate goes to Con on the basis of argument in mathematics 0 has representational meaning even though it amounts to nothing. Since it does have meaning can be multiplied and divided. The argument on multiplication and division of 1 was drop by Pro. S&G to Con, there were capitalization and punctuation errors throughout the debate by Pro. Neither side used sources relevant to the debate, tied. Conduct tied due to tone exhibited was equal on both sides.