The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Losing
4 Points
The Contender
MrJosh
Con (against)
Winning
14 Points

chicken or egg came first- i argue the egg

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
MrJosh
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/26/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 668 times Debate No: 57172
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (4)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

answer: the egg.

the lithmus test for whether the chicken or egg came first, should be a defined list of DNA being met.

science is inexact in listing what constitutes a species. if the animal meets criteria like two wings a beak two chicken legs etc, then it is a chicken. the problem is that this is an inexact science. it is sufficient for everyday use, sure. but a line has to be drawn. how do we draw it? the only way is to make a criteria in DNA and stick to it.

we run into a problem similar to someone trying to sell something. a man wants to sell his 57 chevy for ten thousand. would be take a penny less? sure. two pennies? you see where i'm going with this. the man must set a limit. 9500 and not a penny less? so someone were to offer him a penny less and he doesn't take it, is it really a firm limit? in practice, the man might take it, but we all know a point must be drawn.

in practice, scientists might take less than a nucleotide or piece of DNA, but a point must be drawn.

what constitutes a chicken then will have a firm limit. in the line of chicken like animals before a chicken, there will be close calls no doubt. but it will be one animal that will evetually fill the criteria, meet the DNA match's minimum. and that animal will be first an egg, which hatches into the chicken that meets the match.

practically, the parents of the chicken might be called chickens in everyday use, but a line indeed must be drawn, so they technically are not chickens.
MrJosh

Con

I would like to thank PRO for setting up this debate. I will be arguing that the chicken came before the egg. Since PRO has not offered one, I will now present a definition for “egg:”

“An oval or round object laid by a female bird, reptile, fish, or invertebrate, usually containing a developing embryo [1].”

The Chicken Comes First

With that out of the way, I would like to say that I accept everything PRO has argued to this point. However, PRO fails to take into account the details of chicken development. In the development of a chicken embryo, we start with an oocyte, the cell that will be fertilized and eventually become the next generation of chicken. After ovulation, the oocyte is fertilized in the oviduct, after which numerous things happen, including the addition of a membrane which will become the egg white, and finally, just before the egg is laid, the shell is added [2].

PRO has done an excellent job describing how there is a line drawn where an animal is a new species from a genetic point of view. Regardless of where in history this this took place, the genetic changes were present in the fertilized conceptus before the egg formed around it. Before the membranes and shell I described formed, the embryo could not be considered an egg because it is not an “oval or round object” capable of being laid by a female. Therefore, the chicken came before the egg.

Sources:

[1] http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...
[2] http://www.enchantedlearning.com...

Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

well, con may have got me on a technicality. to the spirit of the debate, though, i still maintain the egg came first.
MrJosh

Con

I would like to thank PRO for her concession, however, I fail to see how the "spirit of the debate" changes anything. If we were to disregard my argument (which I do not), we would run into the chicken and the egg arising simultaneously (which I almost argued). They arose in the same generation.

I would like to thank PRO for this debate, it was actually more interesting than I thought it would be when I accepted it.
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

well, i'm not sure how retracting concessions would work, but i think i might retract it, or consider it.

it is more than the spirit of the debate, but the clear intent, that we are asking about the chicken egg or the parent chicken, which came first? con in his opening statement is trying to equate "chicken" with the embryonic chicken, clearly missing the intent of the debate, as again that 'chicken' reference was clearly referring to the egg's parents.

i suppose i could be faulted for not being technically correct, in that *some* chicken came first, the chicken that turned into the egg. but at least it was not the chicken that was being referred to in the opening proposition of the debate.

we both could be faulted for our approach, but i would contend that my approach was at least less egregious.
MrJosh

Con

I thank PRO for her final round comments. I suppose whether or not a concession can be retracted will be decided by the voters.

Regarding the spirit of the debate, I fail to see how PRO's opening comments suggest a parent chicken. In fact, I would suggest that PRO's whole discussion of DNA negates that line of discussion, as the genetic code (DNA) of the adult chicken is "written" at fertilization. My point about the chicken coming into existence before the egg remains unchallenged.

Overall, I would like to thank PRO for an interesting debate.
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by CrazyCowMan 3 years ago
CrazyCowMan
Obviously the egg.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
dairygirl4u2cMrJoshTied
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Total points awarded:14 
Reasons for voting decision: CONDUCT: The concession was unclear until pro admitted that's what it was the following round, before that point it was a lack of continence (in legal terms basically resting her case). If con's right and it was a concession pro gains conduct, if con was not right the same outcome happens. S&G: Pro's near lack of punctuation indeed was distracting from her case. Please use MS word to format your future arguments. ARGUMENTS: In R1 pro attempts to add a definition, while this time it was not done for semantics, in future I suggest requesting the addition via the comments section before accepting. Pro had a very good opening case, countered by con's case of oocytes, which pro failed to argue against (oocyte is even by pro's own definition an egg, merely internal... he even admits "just before the egg is laid, the shell is added"). SOURCES: From DDO's how to vote guide "Did it support the correct argument?" No, con's only source while used effectively, did not actually support his case.
Vote Placed by lannan13 3 years ago
lannan13
dairygirl4u2cMrJoshTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: This is not a vote bomb! Pro needs to work on Capitalization. Pro conceeded in round 3. You really can't unconceede anything. Con provided the only sources in this debates and he also proved that the chicken came first from within the egg. Which I found to be a unique and unusual argument, but that won it for Con.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 3 years ago
9spaceking
dairygirl4u2cMrJoshTied
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Reasons for voting decision: it is confusing whether or not pro conceded or not, but she did not make much arguments after she retracted her concession, and so con's points still stood in the end
Vote Placed by SGM_iz_SekC 3 years ago
SGM_iz_SekC
dairygirl4u2cMrJoshTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro made better arguments, and it is scientifically proven for the egg to have to have come first, and pro used this argument.