The Instigator
shipman37
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
TheDevilsAdvocate
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

christianity vs science

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/19/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,822 times Debate No: 29364
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (18)
Votes (0)

 

shipman37

Pro

since i dont have enough text space for my original argument... i guess i will start this off by asking a few questions to someone who knows a few things about religion and science. i would prefer someone who is very strong in "non believing" and can answer these questions quite specific.

1.) what made you turn into a "non believer".?
2.)what are your perceptions on God,and Jesus Christ.?
3.)what is your definition of logic.?
4.)do you use "Logic" when denying the existence of Jesus Christ, or God.?
5.)has anyone ever tried to force you into believing.?
6.)if yes how did this make you feel.?
7.)whats your thoughts on Free-Will.?
8.)if there is no god or jesus, whats your opinion on how we are here.? please be specific.
9.)do you believe in good and evil.?
10.)what is your number one argument when proving Jesus Christ, or God false.?

after you answer these questions i will begin to try and prove to you why your answers are wrong. my goal- persuasion/ (extremely hard to do) thanks and i will accept any critism against my arguments I actually look foward to them.(:
TheDevilsAdvocate

Con

I assume you are on the Christian side of things, correct my if I'm wrong. I am an Agnostic-Atheist and thus "very strong in non-believing" as you say. I will answer all your questions specifically then you may try to prove my answers wrong. Thanks for starting this debate!


Before we get into any sort of confusion or misunderstanding, let's clear up some basic definitions. Since you are asking me the questions, I will define these terms to my own understanding.

Agnosticism - The view that certain claims such as the existence or non-existence of gods cannot be known

Atheism - The lack of belief in supernatural phenomena; including god(s)

Supernatural Phenomena - Anything that is said to lie outside Nature itself and transcends time and space

Christianity - Monotheistic Religion based around the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Bible

God - A deity or entity that is supernatural, anthropomorphic and is attributed to be the creator of nature itself. For Christianity, God is Jesus Christ the son, the father creator and the holy spirit.


1.) what made you turn into a "non believer".?

I was an agnostic-atheist since I was a child. By agnostic-atheist I mean that the idea of supernatural things, including gods, spirits, angels etc. cannot be known for certain and that is why I don't believe they exist.

What exactly made me turn into an agnostic-atheist was because I started to read and understand things enough to form my own opinion on various subjects including religion. I read the Bible and the Quran and began my skepticism of the 'absolute truth' within these texts.

2.)what are your perceptions on God,and Jesus Christ.?

There are many gods that human cultures have created to explain natural phenomena in pre-scientific times. After the advent of the scientific method and the increasing body of knowledge about many natural phenomena previously thought as supernatural, the belief in god and the afterlife was a method of escaping awareness of impending mortality.

My specific views on the Christian God is that I do not believe he exists. There is no empirical evidence for the existence of gods in general, let alone the Christian God specifically and thus I choose not to believe he exists. In the same way I choose not to believe pixies and fairies exist, because these things have no evidence for their existence and are impropable to exist, in my opinion.

As for Jesus Christ, I believe he existed as a historical man and that he was a preacher like many others in his time and region; such as Apollonius of Tyana. Christians believe Jesus Christ is the son of God, I do not. I also don't believe Jesus did any of his miracles, or rose from the dead.

3.)what is your definition of logic.?

Logic is a methodology and system of reasoning that uses rational principles to maintain valid discourse. Philosophically it can be the study of how reasoning itself works.

4.)do you use "Logic" when denying the existence of Jesus Christ, or God.?

Yes.

5.)has anyone ever tried to force you into believing.?

No, I was fortunate to live in a home where I could come to my own conclusion independently; though I would have done so regardless of religious strictness. Despite this, I did live in an environment where my family and community were at least moderately religious and have been exposed to religious influences in my life since I can remember (and in fact before then).

6.)if yes how did this make you feel.?

Invalid.

7.)whats your thoughts on Free-Will.?

This is a difficult and complex topic to consider. This delves into many disciplines of science, philosophy, consciousness and dozens of other areas. We can have long, complex debates entirely on this issue but I can summarize my own beliefs in that "Free-Will" is the belief that an "individual" has self-determination, which is the opposite of determinism itself. This is an interesting topic I would love to debate in the future, but my views can be summed up as compatibilism; physical determinism is true but "Free-Will" is possible.

8.)if there is no god or jesus, whats your opinion on how we are here.? please be specific.

How we are here? The Big Bang was the start of Space and Time. Abiogenesis was the start of life. Evolution by natural selection is the perpetual change and increasing complexity of such life.

Do you mean why we are here? Another very complex topic that we can go on and on about in another debate, though I would be interested in such.

9.)do you believe in good and evil.?

No I do not believe in the dichotomy of moral dualism as absolute natural truths and that they are objective. Neither do I believe in black and white subjective morality. I believe morality is relative, to sum it up.

10.)what is your number one argument when proving Jesus Christ, or God false.?

None. I am an agnostic-atheist which means I do not think Jesus Christ as a manifestation of a supernatural, anthropomorphic, creator God in the Christian sense can be proven true or false. My default position is that I do not believe them to exist, not to be confused with knowing that they exist or not.

Because their existence is a positive assertion however, the Burden of Proof lies on the believer and not the non-believer. Ergo until sufficient empirical evidence is presented, I am not warranted in believing any of it.


Thank you for this debate, and I shall await your response and attempt at proving my answers to your questions wrong.
Debate Round No. 1
shipman37

Pro

I would like to inform before hand that I AM NOT GOD, therefore I am not all knowing like my great LORD. now when i refer to GOD, this also includes Jesus, and the holy spirit. explained by the trinity which i will get to later on. But I do try my best to explain what I know, As well as share a few opinions. The parenthesis used throughout this passage are just me explaining myself more clearly and in depth because the bible has several very deep meanings. and opinions on interpretations. for all the verses given i am using the translation of new king james.
A more brief def for logic- HUMAN perception to make something reasonable.
now with that said you seem to use numerous amount of logic in you answers but yet, you say you also believe in the "Big Bang" creating the universe.? please explain to me what is so logical of absolutely nothing creating everything.? this completely blows logic out of the water making the big bang a contradiction since the bang bang is the fondation of Science and it is now a contradiction, "Scientifically" speaking when something contradicts itself. logic is put into play thus creating it illogical for Science to be reasonable at all.. so since youre Big Bang is now illogical, the only Logical thing left that created the universe is GOD since he can be proven by a little word that he and his Holy word (BIBLE) are based on this word FAITH. Faith seems to be the best word of choice since logic simply cant be used to explain something that is not human. as i will later explain more in depth,
We were lucky enough to be born into the wonderful life to not be forced into something, because lets face it any human no matter what it is, if they are forced to do something they will eventually resent the fact of whatever it is they are being forecd into in this case religion. Maybe I have an answer that will change your terrible mis-Guided deception on the bible and Jesus christ. since GODS gift (Free will) allowed you to chose to think this way.i will try my best effort to change youre self-deceived belief by convincing you that science is asinine it is YOUR CHOICE whether you want to believe and accept Jesus Christ or not. Because whichever side you choose, Jesus has chosen to give people as well as lucifer Free will, God knew forcing us to love him would not work, for he is all knowing as i will provide proof in the bible which as of right now is more logical than your science. And will continue to be until you can prove the "Big Bang" logical again.
I will try my best when explaining this to provide the right amount of teachings, lecturing, and space required for you to make our OWN decision. Just like GOD would do. I mean lets face it. EVERYONE IS HUMAN. And GOD knows us best, because well he created us. This is why he gives us the GREAT gift of FREE WILL. now there is something out there that because God wanted all his creations to have free will, that is EVIL. You guessed it Satan. there is numerous accounts of the devil using multiple forms of deception throughout the bible. but i will explain the most well known one.
and apply this to modern day issues.
since you are a logical guy I'd like to start off by saying this~ everything we perceive as a human such as life and space, as well as the things that reside in both these things has a beginning. No matter what it is.
Genisis 1:1 is paraphrased here.
" in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth. But the earth was without form or void. So god said let there be light. And god saw that it was good."
( God went on to make all the things we know today withing only seven days. this just goes to show you how much greater he basically is than humans are. We can barley build a house in 7 days. Let alone a entire universe.!"
The "heavens"referring to two seemingly different things. one which in our day is referred to as the sky/space. not necessarily just the heaven you always hear about. And the second "Heaven" being the heaven we are all trying to get too. That's why he says heavenS because there is space and then actually heaven. Two completely different things. So with this verse you can clearly see everything has a beginning, I'm which god created. Now I know you're dying to know the answer to this question, "But, if everything we know has a beginning what or whom created god.? This is a little tricky to understand with logic I admit that. This is one of the questions I asked myself when I questioned my belief. The answer I came across after many months of research, and asking question to religious philosophers, priest, youth ministries, and many other people I came across an answer. The answer is Human Perception. We all have this. We use human perception to influence the logic in our minds. Anytime we use the term "Logic" it comes from HUMAN perception.(as explained in my definition) this is where you apply things we see and apply reason to, or in other words use HUMAN knowledge and umderstanding and apply it to something else to make it reasonable. this is a very good definition for "logic" that most scientist and atheist use for an argument against Jesus Christ. Now you can't use logic~ or HUMAN perception when thinking of god,(as described above) simply for the fact that god isn't HUMAN. This is equal to the same amount of sense if I were to compare, a Car to a dog, They are NOTHING ALIKE. I mean sure the dogs wants to catch the car and touch it, just as humans want to have some form of tangible GOD (sinless, all knowing, etc) in order to believe. but we all know if the dog were to get ahold of the car, what would he do with it.? He would have no use with the car, the car would be simply be to complex for the dog to understand or question. The dog would eventually if not trained, destroy the car. Just as a human did when given a tangible form of God, the tangible form of god is known as Jesus Christ. But I'll go on about him later.
back to Adam and eve, the devil was first mentioned in the garden of Eden, in i believe its the second chapter.(im to lazy to look) And refers to him as a "serpent." The serpent or the Devil deceives eve to eat from the tree of knowledge. Even after god had strictly confronted both adam and eve about the tree of knowledge. God gave them one rule, and said "thou shall not eat from the tree of knowledge..." (I dont know the exact quote, and im to lazy to look it up.!) . A little while after god leaves satan or as described in the book of geniesis, as The Serpent deceives: or in other words tricks eve to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Now the reason why I use the words "deceive" and "tricked" is because the devil doesn't lie to eve at all. In fact He tells her the truth.! Knowing that the natural human curiosity will cause eve to eat from the tree of knowledge. Eves natural human curiosity was so high that all the devil had to say was, basically this (i dont know the exact verse amd once again: to lazy to look it up.) 'why shouldn't you eat from the tree of knowledge.? It will simply open your eyes.' Now little did eve know that, this was the exact reason god didn't want eve to Eat the fruit: Because once our eyes were opened, Adam and Eve saw all of the "Evil" in the world that GOD was trying to blind them from. Because GOD knew about there curiosity and would never take away free will. (Free will actually was always allowed. You see.? That's why God our creator, is so great, he gives us the power of choice long before humans. Free will actually started with an evil angel named "Lucifer" AKA:Satan) Since Eve had eaten the fruit from the tree of knowlege, amd convinced Adam too. both Adam and Eve's eyes were open. Which caused humans to see the difference of good and evil. now this best explains that good and evil in the world do exist, and that satan deceives humans with ease. and with time comes experience resulting in wisdom. he became so wise that he began using our curiosity and logic against us..
TheDevilsAdvocate

Con

Thanks for your response shipman. Trust me, I will enjoy refutting your argument.

"when i refer to GOD, this also includes Jesus, and the holy spirit. explained by the trinity which i will get to later on"

Yes I defined Christianity as such.

"Big Bang" creating the universe.? please explain to me what is so logical of absolutely nothing creating everything.?"

The Big Bang did not create the universe, it was the begining of the universe. The Big Bang has not been proven through logic, but with empirical evidence. The redshift of distant galaxies was amongst the first of such evidence as indicated by Hubble's Law. Under Hubble's Law, the universe is expanding with actual physical observation. From this we gather that distant objects have had to come from some point, and using the observable evidence it has been mathematically proven that the Universe was once a single point some 13.7 billion years ago. The mathematical equations build upon Einstein's general relativety. That is just 1 piece of evidence for the Big Bang. [1]

Thus the Big Bang is not illogical since it has supporting evidence. Also note the first person to suggest the expansion of the universe theory was Georges Lemaitre, a Catholic priest.

"the only Logical thing left that created the universe is GOD since he can be proven by a little word that he and his Holy word (BIBLE) are based on this word FAITH"

This is classic example of argument from ignorance. If you say that the Big Bang is wrong and we don't know what caused the Universe to exist, it must be God you are essentially saying "I don't know, therefore I know" and makes no sense. The Bible is not evidence as it is just a book. You believe it to be true with faith, which means no matter how much the real world can contradict the bible, you will still believe it to be true.

"We can barley build a house in 7 days"

See video #3


"if they are forced to do something they will eventually resent the fact of whatever it is they are being forecd into in this case religion. "

You are right. Unfortunately within the Christian context, one must be forced to believe in God to go to Heaven lest they go to Hell. Matthew 10:33 and Revelations 20:15 attest to this. This is essentially like a thief telling someone to give them their money or they will shoot them, but they still have a choice to give their money. In reality that is not a choice, that is duress. Except that eternity in fire and brimstone is worse than being shot.

"But, if everything we know has a beginning what or whom created god.?"

"The answer is Human Perception."

You use the argument of causality to "disprove" the Big Bang yet fail to answer that question about God. You say it's "Human Perception" so that makes the Bible "Divine Perception" which again, is just a book and does not serve as evidence for God's existence anymore than the Harry Potter books serve as existence of Dumbeldore's wizardly skills.

"The serpent or the Devil "

The Bible never says the serpent in Genesis is actually the Devil. [2]


"Free will actually started with an evil angel named "Lucifer""

By "evil" you must mean immoral. God has absolute power and Lucifer rebelled against God. We praise those who rebel against tyrants, does that really mean Lucifer is evil?

As far as I know, Satan has become a scapegoat for the Christian religion. Anything deemed immoral is blamed on "Satan" to escape collective conscience.

Your argument for good and evil has not convinced me, or has been proven me wrong in any sense.


Your intention was to prove my answers wrong but you have not. I am going to be as open-minded as possible and if you can attempt to prove me wrong you would have succeeded. Of course open-mindedness does not mean I will consider all assertions that are unfounded by evidence. You can prove my entire argument wrong with one simple thing: prove the existence of the Christian God with empirical evidence.


On a side note, I will add some more things to reinforce my arguments and show you why your perception of science is incorrect. I have provided several videos for this that have been made by QualiaSoup and gives an interesting perspective.

I will quote you again as to what you said

"after you answer these questions i will begin to try and prove to you why your answers are wrong."

This is what me and the judges are looking for. If you succeed, you win this debate and will certainly make me reconsider the Christian faith. This is a difficult task as you said yourself and so I applaud you for attempting to do so. Since your faith in God is so strong, you no doubt feel as if you know you have the truth, and if that is the case then you will inevitably prove my answers wrong. Truth prevails over falsehoods. Question is, will you be able to do so?

You asked for criticism for your argument and I will gladly provide you with some that are constructive and not insulting. First I suggest you paragraph your argument to make it easier to read. It is frustrating to read a wall of text. Second I encourage spelling and grammar. Minor mistakes are fine but your argument is riddeled with them. Also the above rebuttals I have made ought to be considered.

Sources




[1] Steven W. Hawking, George F.R. Ellis, "The Cosmic Black-Body Radiation and the Existence of Singularities in our Universe,"Astrophysical Journal, 152, (1968) pp. 25-36.
[2] http://www.holeybooks.com...

I look forward to your response! Cheers!
Debate Round No. 2
shipman37

Pro

shipman37 forfeited this round.
TheDevilsAdvocate

Con

I give respect to my opponent, shipman for informing me as to the reason why he had to forfeit. He sent me a direct message and I feel it is only fair that everyone should see it.

"Would you please be so kind to allow our debate to be postponed until sometime next week.? My Internet shutoff unexpectedly and they said they could come and fix it as soon as possible. I am using my phone and it would be very hard to type all I need on it. We could copy and paste everything we have thus far and continue next week. If you allow it to be. Thanks."

I wouldn't mind postponing the debate, but I believe whatever we have here ought to be judged on its own, then we can continue the same exact topic on another debate.

In conclusion, I will let the judges decide.
Debate Round No. 3
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by devient.genie 4 years ago
devient.genie
Religious Intellect: I believe in science. Science is in the bible.

Intellectual Honesty: You say you believe in science, yet everytime I tell you something about science, you say it is somehow wrong because it doesnt fit your story, or you find a way to say 'god did it for a reason we just dont know what that reason is'

That way, by using that statement right there, gives god full reign to do whatever he wants and stone whoever he wants in the old testament, and tell whoever he wants to cover their head when they pray in 1 Corinthians in your precious new testament. Violent sexists, dont make beautiful, magical and inspirational universes :)

Its all outdated beliefs on the universe and life. Violence and sexism are frowned upon today, so one of us is smarter, yesterdays man or todays man? Lets try to be tomorrows man today, said the slave. Today slavery is widely frowned upon. We are tomorrows man to the slave. We are tomorrows man to the woman who could Not vote. We are the tommorow man of many free thinkers. We should always encourage free thought, free thought gave birth to science, science is what saves and blesses us each and everyday, its everywhere in our lives, yet we belittle, ignore and are completely ungrateful to the understandings mankind has uncovered in the 21st Century.

Science has superceeded and surpassed religion in 2013, far beyond your comprehension.

The science of today, was Not known to Charles Darwin, Isaac "christian superhero" Newton, Albert Einstein. Evolution has been scrutinised and observed to be understood for over 150 yrs, there is no controversy in 2013 :)

Todays scientists are smarter than those guys.

Mankind is smart a man is dumb :)
Posted by shipman37 4 years ago
shipman37
I will answer any questions you may have in our debate.
Posted by devient.genie 4 years ago
devient.genie
shipman, in regards to this bible is there any particular version or all are lncluded?

Is any of the bible incorrect or is everything it claims happened 100% real and actually was said and took place?
Posted by timou 4 years ago
timou
Who is God ?
http://quran.com...
Posted by shipman37 4 years ago
shipman37
Genie I have nothing to postpone with you currently... And I will answer the questions within our debate unless you decline. The only answer I will give now is the bible.
Posted by devient.genie 4 years ago
devient.genie
we can postpone whenever you want. However, there will be no getting my time unitl you answer a few questions first.

Now who or what is god? How did you hear about him or it? Can I read anything he or it wrote anywhere or that was written about him or it ?

If youre shy and dont want to answer questions here, send me answers in a message :)
Posted by shipman37 4 years ago
shipman37
I'm not talking about on the comment section genie, lets have a debate.?
And I'm sort everyone but my Internet shutoff and I'm using my phone, I asked advocate if we could postpone till next week.
Posted by devient.genie 4 years ago
devient.genie
shipman, who is god? How did you hear about him? Can I read anything he wrote anywhere?
Posted by timou 4 years ago
timou
torah and bible are from God but crrupted.
there is 1 God, 1religion and many prophets who have 1same message:to believe in one God=islam.
all prophets are muslims , in christians countries there is atheists mmore then other countries because the bible was modified.
Allah promissed to guard quran from corruption .
Allah said islam is the only way to heaven .
anyone want to save himself from hell ; check scientific proofs that your media hide and read quran.
No votes have been placed for this debate.