The Instigator
linkish
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Epicism
Con (against)
Winning
14 Points

cloning

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Epicism
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/11/2009 Category: Science
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,636 times Debate No: 7799
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (2)

 

linkish

Pro

I beleive that cloning could in fact help us, if you lost your child then there is always the clones that live on. Secondly if we have rights to clone animals, why not humans? Last is that think about the millitarys we could build, we could have gotten world war 2 done and over with using only ONE person. Thats all I have to say for now. Start the debate!
Epicism

Con

I thank my opponent for this challenge. Its a subject I have yet to debate. Best of wishes!

First off I'd like to clarify, my opponent is Pro to cloning humans in the United States. This debate won't be bound by laws and or treaties of any other nation.

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Case attacks;
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"if you lost your child then there is always the clones that live on."

Adopting a clone would be just like adopting any other child (minus the health issues I will state latter) there would be no point because in reality, clones are only GENETICALLY identical not physically. This is due to envoronment conditions both in and outside of the womb. Clones are much more expensive than adoption due to success rates and lack of a wide use in the field.

"Secondly if we have rights to clone animals, why not humans?"

(You can thank Skeptic for getting me hooked on "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind")

Because animals do not have rights, in order to obtain rights one must have consciousness. As said in "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" by Julian Jayne, language is a must when it comes to being deemed "conscious". Because of this, they are also deemed nothing more than property and that's where property rights kick in.

"Last is that think about the millitarys we could build, we could have gotten world war 2 done and over with using only ONE person."

What Pro is suggesting is unethical by all means! Pro deems a clone as lower than an actual being in society, to the point where they are nothing more than slaves. These clones are deemed as nothing but tools by Pro and should be a reason to reject the resolution!

Also these clones would be subject to every amendment in the U.S. constitution so doing so would be impossible.

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Case opening
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I'd like to open my case on this note;

Let us look at the problems that humans have already. We have not realized a peaceful world. There are many people who die needlessly from senseless violence over territory, ideas, or both. People of all ages, young and old, opt for abortion, while others offer babies for adoption (those children seldom have a stable home) and yet others neglect the children they have. Cloning shouldn't be on anyone's agenda. We aren't taking care of the human beings already here!

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Contention 1; Therapeutic cloning
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Cloning supports BAD stem cell research!

Therapeutic cloning, or somatic cell nuclear transfer, is the immoral side of stem cell research. The method is to create an embryo so that it can be harvested of its stem cells which are "cloned" into different tissues. This method is not used to create cloned human beings, but to harvest them for organs and so called "treatments" for unnamed diseases. Other forms of stem cell harvesting are more preferable and ethical, such as adult stem cells and umbilical cord stem cells. Why bring a human life into this world only to harvest it?

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Contention 2; Reproductive cloning
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Cloning supports chaos in our crime and genetic identification systems!

It would be impossible to figure out the DNA of a specific criminal when he or she has multiple genetically identical copies of him or herself. We would have say, a hundred of the same person imprisoned for the acts of one. Either all the innocent people are jailed or all the crooks are allowed to be freed, because of a phrase called "innocent until proven guilty". If we start reproductive cloning you can kiss the judicial system goodbye.

Reproductive cloning comes with high risk factors!

This method is very inefficient. More than 90% of attempts at cloning fail, the process could be done a hundred times and only work ONCE. If a viable offspring is produced there are also health factors, clones tend to have more compromised immune functions, higher infection rates, tumor growths, and other disorders. Most clones die "young" compared to other non-clones in their species. Also clones have mysterious deaths, they can appear to be fine even energetic and die within 5 minutes of that observations. Countless biopsy's have been done on these clones, but no one could determine the cause of death.

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Contention 3; Thomas Malthus - Population growth
=================================================
I will open this contention with a quote from Thomas Malthus. For those of you who are not familiar with him, you should look him up sometime.

"The power of population is so superior to the power of the earth to produce subsistence for man, that premature death must in some shape or other visit the human race. The vices of mankind are active and able ministers of depopulation. They are the precursors in the great army of destruction, and often finish the dreadful work themselves. But should they fail in this war of extermination, sickly seasons, epidemics, pestilence, and plague advance in terrific array, and sweep off their thousands and tens of thousands. Should success be still incomplete, gigantic inevitable famine stalks in the rear, and with one mighty blow levels the population with the food of the world."

Emphasis on "gigantic inevitable famine". The result of cloning would accelerate our population growth uncotrollably. We would run out of resources, particularly food which causes a worldwide FAMINE. Don't accept any "more people means more grown" argument, Malthus's theory of overpopulation can also tie to space. We don't have infinite land to keep that kind of cycle going, thus Pro accelerates the inevitable to the point where this could happen within 2 to 3 generations!

The two proposed solutions in Malthus's theory are;

"Malthus argued that population was held within resource limits by two types of checks: positive ones, which raised the death rate, and preventative ones, which lowered the birth rate. The positive checks included hunger, disease and war; the preventative checks, abortion, birth control, prostitution, postponement of marriage, and celibacy."

Rather than cause a positive or preventive check, cloning does the opposite of preventive checks by INCREASING birthrate thus if you give a Pro ballot, the only way we will be able to stop overpopulation's effects is by positive checks which means we must bring about disease, force starvation upon others, and kill one another in order to maintain the balance.

Negated.

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Sources
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http://www.illinoisrighttolife.org...
http://www.ornl.gov...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
"The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of a Bicameral Mind"

I thank my opponent and the viewers for reading through that and once again, best of wishes.

"Evil Disco"
Debate Round No. 1
linkish

Pro

linkish forfeited this round.
Epicism

Con

Thank you all for reading this far.
==========
Extensions;
==========

Case attacks,
C1 Therapeutic cloning,
C2 Reproductive cloning,
C3 Malthusian catastrophe,
Sources.

Add-Ons;

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Contention 4; Genetic variability
======================

Cloning may reduce genetic variability, producing as many clones as Pro suggests comes with the risk of a creating a population susceptible to the same diseases, and one disease could devastate the entire population. A virus deadly to one clone would just as well devastate the rest!

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Contention 5; Religious Conflicts
======================

I know this may not count for much in some of your books, but cloning would cause major conflicts between the government and religious peoples in the U.S. if cloning is allowed to be normalized. Many different religions find cloning highly unethical, and unnatural. The last thing we need is more government-citizen conflict.

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 2
linkish

Pro

linkish forfeited this round.
Epicism

Con

Extend case attacks and contentions 1-5.

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Epicism 7 years ago
Epicism
Na its cool. Doesn't seem anyone is voting on this debate anyways lol. That would be nice, but I have to debate Bored too cause I've been out and didn't have time to accept my previous debate.
Posted by linkish 7 years ago
linkish
what is "evil disco" It looks a little odd.
Posted by linkish 7 years ago
linkish
holy crap I would like a rematch well because I moved and it took a fliping WEEK I only forfited because I moved from Ireland to Nevada,still I think I would have failed anyway even if I tried sorry for the problem....again a rematch sound good... or a diffrent subject sounds better, I dont like getting ripped open then someone throws salt in the wound oh well want to try again, I wont be able to debate on friday to tuesday I will be in colorado... well thanks for the kill, I will take the blames, just try not to lay it on thick plz.
Posted by Epicism 7 years ago
Epicism
:D I <3 Malthus.

:But not in a heterosexual way
Posted by TFranklin62 7 years ago
TFranklin62
con u r so totally owning this guy! great points
Posted by Epicism 7 years ago
Epicism
@ R_R

Hah I love that! I didn't know you composed :P
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 7 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
They see me clonin'
They hatin
Patrolling they tryin to catch me splicin geney's
Tryin to catch me splicin geney's
Tryin to catch me splicin geney's
Tryin to catch me splicin geney's
Tryin to catch me splicin geney's
My biotech so good
I'm swangin
They hopin that they gon catch me splicin geney's
Tryin to catch me splicin geney's
Tryin to catch me splicin geney's
Tryin to catch me splicin geney's
Tryin to catch me splicin geney's
Posted by Epicism 7 years ago
Epicism
I have one of those disgusting feelings that I forgot something again...
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Urania 7 years ago
Urania
linkishEpicismTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Lazy 7 years ago
Lazy
linkishEpicismTied
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Total points awarded:07