The Instigator
shakuntala
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
oculus_de_logica
Con (against)
Winning
10 Points

colin leslie dean work is a new literary genre

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after 2 votes the winner is...
oculus_de_logica
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/17/2014 Category: Arts
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 649 times Debate No: 59116
Debate Rounds (3)
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Votes (2)

 

shakuntala

Pro

colin leslie dean work is a new literary genre
you can see his work here
http://www.scribd.com...
his work it is not poetry-which is metrical - and it is not free verse-which is non metrical and no rhyme -thus deans work is a new literary genre as it is not metrical but it rhymes

So here is how poetry is defined

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

poetry is defined to be

1)a : metrical writing : verse

2): writing that formulates a concentrated imaginative awareness of experience in language chosen and arranged to create a specific emotional response through meaning, sound, and RHYTHM

Definition of free verse
http://www.thefreedictionary.com......

free verse
n
1. (Poetry) unrhymed verse without a metrical pattern

thus from the definition of free verse "which is not in metre or rhymes- and poetry-writing in metre deans work is neither poetry or free verse as it is not metrical but it rhyme
thus it is a new literary genre
oculus_de_logica

Con

Hia there, and welcome.

Let's just be straight to the point, shall we?

The resolution is „C.L Dean's work is a new literary genre”. The resolution thus implies that Dean invented an entirely new genre of poetry that has never before been seen. He then backs this up by defining poetry and free verse, neither of which apparently fit to his works. However, this is irreverent in all accounts and measures, because he didn't invent this unmetrical rhymed style.

The definition of “invent” is the followed:
Invent: create or design (something that has not existed before); be the originator of.
And to fit the resolution „new“ in this context means:
New: produced, introduced, or discovered recently or now for the first time; not existing before.

In order to fit the resolution Dean must prove that he was the first person ever to do a rhymed poem that has no meter. To defeat this notion I have to find a single poet that did it before him. Thankfully, that wasn't too hard. Let us begin the listing. I shall only post the first verse or first 8-10 lines of each poem, whichever is more appropriate for each case:

The first point in case is the poem
“For the Briacliff High School class of 1986” by A.E.Stallings[1]:

Just what I needed,

Just when the dreams had almost totally receded,

The dreams of roles for which I learned no lines and knew no cues,
Dreams of pop quizzes with no pants on and no shoes,

Just when I understood I was no longer among
Those ephemeral immortals, the gauche and pitiable young,

Suddenly come phone calls, messages sift out of the air

To ask who will be there:

Names I haven't given a thought to in a score

(A score!) of years, and names I used to think about but don't much anymore,

No distinguishable meter is present but clear rhymes. This 2006 poem was not authored by Dean and thus he did not invent it.

But that's only the tip of the iceberg. Assuming Dean is somewhere around 20-40 years old he was born somewhere in 1970-1990. This next poem was first released in 1975 in the book collective poems.At that time I'll at beast believe that Dean was 15. he at least was not the first to publish in this style.

The Jungle husband
by Stevie Smith[2].

Dearest Evelyn I often think of you
Out with the guns in the jungle stew
Yesterday I hittapotamus
I put the measurements down for you but they got lost in the fuss
It’s not a good idea to drink out here
You know, I’ve practically given it up dear.
Tomorrow I am going alone a long way
Into the jungle. It is all gray
But green on top

a good decade earlier the poem Very Like a Whale by Ogden Nash[3]:
One thing that literature would be greatly the better for
Would be a more restricted employment by the authors of simile and
metaphor.
Authors of all races, be they Greeks, Romans, Teutons or Celts,
Can't seem just to say that anything is the thing it is but have to
go out of their way to say that it is like something else.
What does it mean when we are told
That that Assyrian came down like a wolf on the fold?
In the first place, George Gordon Byron had enough experience
To know that it probably wasn't just one Assyrian, it was a lot of
Assyrians.

For our final nail in the inventor coffin we have these poems. Both of these last poems where released before Dean was even born, assuming Dean isn’t' a senior citizen approaching the age of 80; in which case I'm going to need to see a birth certificate.

Jehanne Dubrow. Couplets, modeled on the verse of a Yiddish Poet. Ida Lewin(died 1938)
http://www.english.ufl.edu...
(I'm too lazy to manually type down the poem in the image.)

And our final work to display the style years before Dean was born and thus years before he “invented” it Nearly an entire book, written in 1939: a full 75 years ago.

Autumn Journal by Loise Mcneice.[4]
September has come, it is hers
Whose vitality leaps in the autumn,
Whose nature prefers
Trees without leaves and a fire in the fireplace.
So I give her this month and the next
Though the whole of my year should be hers who has rendered already
So many of its days intolerable or perplexed
But so many more so happy.
Who has left a scent on my life, and left my walls
Dancing over and over with her shadow
Whose hair is twined in all my waterfalls
And all of London littered with remembered kisses.

So, dear readers. We see that even if this particular style or 'genre' of poetry: rhymed but without meter, is not common in modern poetry or poetry in general it still was existing well before Dean wrote his first poem, before he even understood what a rhyme or meter was. As such Dean has not, in any way, shape or form, created a new genre of literature. He is simply using what has existed for more than 75 years.

I await a rebuttal.

1]poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/poem/181585

2]poemhunter.com/poem/the-jungle-husband/

3]http://allpoetry.com...

4] http://www.goodreads.com...

Debate Round No. 1
shakuntala

Pro

PLEASE TELL US WHAT GENRE THOSE EXAMPLE YOU GAVE ARE IN -and that would be the genre of deans work- if you cant then my claims stand

two points
1) I did not say deans work is the FIRST of a new literary genre

am just pointing out that it IS a new literary genre

there may be other works in that style before but no one has pointed out they are in a new genre before
all you have to do is prove/tell us the people who said those examples you gave are in a new genre -if you cant then my position stands

it would be like people in the past writing in the style of parody but at that time not recognizing that their writing was parody ie a new genre - for that time

2)I did not say dean invented anything - "'invent" is not to be found any where in my claim
what I said is colin leslie dean work IS a new literary genre there may be other before who wrote in deans genre but they did not recognize that their work was a new genre

you ineffect have proven my claim by giving examples of non metrical rhyming work

also if you say what dean has done was done before all you have to do now is tell us what genre the examples you gave people have before said they are in -if you cant then my claim stands

all you have to do now is tell us what genre the examples you gave are in and that would be the genre deans work is in PLEASE TELL US WHAT GENRE THOSE EXAMPLE YOU GAVE ARE IN -and that would be the genre of deans work- if you cant then my claims stand
oculus_de_logica

Con

Unfortunately names of styles are fairly unoriginal.... It could simply be named „Rhymed free verse“ or „Rhymed verse“

However, most often this type of unmetrical, rhymed poetry is called a „Rhymed Prose“. A prose is often unmetrical and not rhymed, but a rhymed prose is, as indicated, rhymed but follows no specific meter. The Wikipedia page on “Rhymed Prose” states the following:

Rhymed prose is a literary form and literary genre, written in unmetrical rhymes. This form has been known in many different cultures. In some cases the rhymed prose is a distinctive, well-defined style of writing. In modern literary traditions the boundaries of poetry are very broad (free verse, prose poetry, etc.), and some works may be described both as prose and poetry.

So, no, Dean was not even the first to point out this particular genre or style. It has existed and been recognized for centuries before his birth. Classical Arabic culture named them “Saj”, An elaborate version of the rhymed prose was named “Maqama”, the Chinese had their own variation of rhymed prose called “Fu”, It was common apparently in the early Khariboli hindi texts and in European culture it was generally a defining feature of the Divine Office.

It also was and is quite common in children books. For instance Doctor Seuss often wrote in rhymed prose, as you can see in the short children novel
Green eggs and ham.


we see that Dean did not invent this genre. This genre is not new in the world of literary works. This genre has and is well recognized in cultures all around the world. This genre is not new in any way or form and stretches it's length millennia back. This genre may have become less common as time marches on but it still is well known and well practised in the world of today.

Dean is writing a Rhymed Prose, or a free verse that happens to rhyme. He is free to chose what genre he claims he is writing in, but as with all things concerning art, it is extremely unlikely that he will ever write something that nobody has written or observed before.

Debate Round No. 2
shakuntala

Pro

all con had to do was give us the name of the genre-in the Western tradition - that categorized deans work- he has not done that
all he has said is deans work is "rhyming prose" but that is a description not a category name of a genre
so con has not proven his position that
colin leslie dean work is not a new literary genre- it may be in a style that has been done before in the Western tradition

but dean is the first to recognize it is a new genre

ARGUMENT
free verse
http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
"free verse
n
1. (Poetry) unrhymed verse

http://www.merriam-webster.com...
poetry is defined to be

1)a : metrical writing

con says"

point ONE
"Unfortunately names of styles are fairly unoriginal.... It could simply be named "Rhymed free verse" or "Rhymed verse""
point
1
1)free verse is defined to have no rhyme so deans work cant be called "Rhymed free verse"

2)deans work cant be called""Rhymed verse" as verse is defined to be in metre and deans work is not in metre
so deans works is different to both free verse and poetry and "Rhymed free verse" "Rhymed verse"

point TWO

con says quoting wiki

"Rhymed prose is a literary form and literary genre, written in unmetrical rhymes. This form has been known in many different cultures. In some cases the rhymed prose is a distinctive, well-defined style of writing. In modern literary traditions the boundaries of poetry are very broad (free verse, prose poetry, etc.), and some works may be described both as prose and poetry. "

this quote is from a brood outline of rhyming prose in different cultures
ie
it says
"This form has been known in many different cultures"
1 Arabic culture and influences-called it saj
2 Chinese culture called it Fu
3 Indian culture the wiki article does not tell us what the Indians called rhyming prose so we could take it they did not see it as a genre -much like they did see tragedy as a genre
4 European cultures -Rhymed prose was a characteristic feature of the Divine Office in we dont know if they had a name for it or recognized that it was a genre

point
1) we are not interested in what other cultures named or did not name a genre we are talking about our culture ie Western

2) different cultures did not have a genre called history -but from ancient writing what they would be called by us the genre of history namely India had no genre of history or for that matter tragedy yet example of both can be seen in some of their writing ie history the Mahabharta and for tragedy the Sanskrit poems dealing with poverty and miser -see "Sanskrit poetry "H.H.Ingals,256
Many cultures have no word for religion or recognized a difference between the religious and secular yet we would recognize the religious in their belief systems

3) the wiki states only this about or Western approach
"In modern literary traditions the boundaries of poetry are very broad (free verse, prose poetry, etc.), and some works may be described both as prose and poetry."
all it say is "some works may be described both as prose and poetry" ie it does not give a name for the genre ." prose and poetry"

now deans work does not fit this wiki observation as deans work might be prose but it is not poetry -which is metrical writing

con says
"So, no, Dean was not even the first to point out this particular genre or style."
point
1)

only if you are talking about other cultures -but we are talking in this debate about our Western culture
and in our Western culture as wiki shows there is no named genre for what dean does the names "rhyming prose" just describes what dean is doing but "rhyming prose" is not a genre in the West just like a humorous or satirical imitation of a work describe a style but it does not name a genre -that genre would be call parody . In the East they have a name for the genre which is described as "rhyming prose" ie saj ,fu

point THREE
con says

"It also was and is quite common in children books. For instance Doctor Seuss often wrote in rhymed prose, as you can see in the short children novel Green eggs and ham."
point1) maybe but it is not called a genre

point FOUR
CON SAYS
"we see that Dean did not invent this genre"."
point1)

I DID NOT SAY DEAN INVENTED A NEW GENRE

point FIVE
con says
"This genre is not new in the world of literary works"

point1)
agreed but it is a genre without a name in the West the writing style was not/is not recognized as a genre only seen as rhyming prose

. point SIX
con say "
"Dean is writing a Rhymed Prose, or a free verse that happens to rhyme."
point 1)
dean is writing rhymed prose [as others in the western tradition have done] but that has nt been seen as a genre with its own name like parody satire etc

point 2) again dean is not writing free verse as by definition free v has no rhyme -but deans work has

so in summing up

1)all con has shown is that rhyming prose was used in the Eastern tradition and it was recognized as a distinct genre with its own name given a name to categorize a genre of writing ie Arabic saj Chinese fu

2) con has shown that rhyming prose is used in the Western tradition- BUT HE HAS NOT SHOWN THAT IT WAS RECOGNISED AS A DISTINCT GENRE WITH ITS NAME IE LIKE PARODY

3) all con has said it that deans work "could simply be named "Rhymed free verse" or "Rhymed verse"
but as pointed by the definitions of poetry free verse deans rhyming prose cant be called "Rhymed free verse" or "Rhymed verse"

so in all with all cons research con has not disproved that deans work is not a new genre
to repeat
con has shown that rhyming prose is used in the Western tradition- BUT HE HAS NOT SHOWN THAT IT WAS RECOGNISED AS A DISTINCT GENRE WITH ITS NAME IE LIKE PARODY

all con had to do was give us the name of the genre-in the Western tradition - that categorized deans work
all he has said it that it is "rhyming prose" but that is a description not a category name of a genre
oculus_de_logica

Con

As I read over the last argument my opponent gave us I noticed how wast misunderstanding my opponent seems to have on his own debate topic and how fallacious his entire argument is.

To keep this as clear as possible I'm just going to sum up the arguments he made and individually debunk them.

First off he states that a Rhyming Prose is not a genre but a description. This is false.

“Rhyming pose is not a genre”

In his own tally where he showed us how his work did not fit into common genres he stated and defined the following as being genres.

-Poetry
-Free verse.

In that group we would also fit the, accepted I might add, genre of “prose”
A rhyming prose is thus a sub-genre in that sense, a genre that has the qualities of a prose but adds in the restriction of rhyming. If the two forementioned 'genres' are genres then a rhyming prose is one as well, and if they are not my opponent has forfeited his entire argument.

Dean is first to reccognize this genre as a genre.
Also false, as my entire last round showed. It is recognized as a rhyming prose. It is recognized in western culture as a genre, it is recognized in eastern culture and has been for generations, it has been recognized and named in multiple cultures; and it has a name, definition, has a category in poetic analytical, and was purposely used by multiple poets with the clear intention. Nobody “accidentally” wrote a rhymed prose. If someone where to ask an Arabic poet to write a “Saj” he would know that he was being asked to write a literary work that had no metric but had a rhyme pattern, either fixed or not. The sole fact that it has a name is unrefutable proof that it is already a known genre. Whatever Dean writes in said genre is not a new genre no matter how hard he claims it is, we already know and acknowledge the rhymed prose.

we dont know if they had a name for it or recognized that it was a genre”

Also irrelevant. In the extremely unlikely chance that the poets themselves did not have a name or knowladge of the genre they write their poems in (which would be equivalent of Dean not being aware that he is writing an erotic poem as he is writing it and someone else would point it out to him.) later historians and poetic analysts have already diagnosed, named and characterised the genre for them, again, before Dean was born. We know that a prose was well known, as we have recorded usage of the word both by the poets themselves (see the Icelantic sagas) and later analysts using the word.

For
instance, The first written usage of the term “Rhymed Prose” appeared somewhere in 1812[1], and has been increasing in usage ever since; showing us that it has been recognized for at least 200 years. Dean thus can not have been the first to recognize or identify it unless he has discovered time travel.

“we are not interested in what other cultures named or did not name a genre we are talking about our culture ie Western”
As you wish. In English culture it is named Rhymed Prose. In Icelantic culture it is named, but incorrectly spelled because I can't use Icelantic letters: “Rimad prosaljod”

Proses where a common poetry form around the viking ages from 800-1200 and where well recognized as a prose.

But even if the rhymed prose was unknown in 'our' culture that is irrelivent. It still existed and was defined in eastern culture and as such it cannot be a new genre, it is an eastern genre that has existed in one form or the other for millennia.


different cultures did not have a genre called history […] religious and secular yet we would recognize the religious in their belief systems”
Completelyirrelevant, as shown. Our culture has a name for this genre of poetry, both identified by said poets and by historians later on before Dean was even born. It does not matter if the first culture to use a genre did not invent the name of the genre if someone else named it later. It has later been named more than a century before Dean claimed to have identified it.

"some works may be described both as prose and poetry" ie it does not give a name for the genre ." prose and poetry"

Has nothing to do with the debate. A prose is a genre on it's own, A rhymed prose is a sub-genre of prose poetry. The poem Dean used as an example is a rhymed prose.

now deans work does not fit this wiki observation as deans work might be prose but it is not poetry -which is metrical writing.

So you're admitting that it might be a prose, which means that you admit that it is not a new literary genre. You just threw the entire debate out the window there.

only if you are talking about other cultures -but we are talking in this debate about our Western culture
and in our Western culture as wiki shows there is no named genre for what dean does the names”

If a poem is a genre, and free verse is a genre, that must mean a prose is a genre, and thus we have a name. Rhyming pose as a genre exists and the example fits into that genre, thus not being new.

but it is not called a genre”

Look at the wikipedia page on Rhymed prose again.
Rhymed prose is a literary form and literary genre

It is in fact accepted as being a genre, and if it is a genre already Dean cannot “re-discover” it, it is not new.

I DID NOT SAY DEAN INVENTED A NEW GENRE”

But you did state he was the first to identify that this is a genre, thus inventing it, or at least inventing the definition for it. This is false as I've proven time and time again.

agreed but it is a genre without a name in the West the writing style was not/is not recognized as a genre only seen as rhyming prose”

Rhyming Prose” is the full name of this genre and that is the accepted name. Neither in western nor eastern culture is this a genre without name, and even this would be a genre without name it still is a genre and thus Dean cannot say his work is of a new genre. If I were to concede (for argument sake) Dean would still only be able to claim his work was a part of an unnamed genre, not a new one as the resolution implies.

.
dean is writing rhymed prose [as others in the western tradition have done] but that has nt been seen as a genre with its own name like parody satire etc

I don't like repeating myself, but in this case we have a full concession. You Admit that Dean is writing a Rhymed Prose and that others have written in this genre. I've also shown that this is indeed accepted as a genre. If we look up genre we find this definition:

a category of artistic, musical, or literary composition characterized by a particular style, form, or content “

A rhymed prose fits into a specific form and style and thus is a new, recognized, genre.



Pro has, both indirectly and directly, forfeited the debate, forfeited his own arguments and failed to provide any evidence for his case.

Dean has not invented a new genre.
Dean has not defined a new genre.

Dean has not recognized a new genre that already existed.
Dean did not first identify a genre.

I however have proven:
That all around the world this genre has been used.
That this genre has been identified and defined as a genre.
That this genre has been given multiple names in multiple languages.

That the first recorded instance of said genre was centuries before Dean was born.

That Dean is just writing in a genre already known, identified, named, used and is in no way, shape, form or definition new.

Any sensible reader can see that Pro has not been able to make a single evidence relating to the resolution that I could not defeat and refute with little or no effort. In no
understanding, definition or intrpretation of the resolution is “Dean's work of a new literary genre”

I rest my case, and thank you for the debate.

1]https://books.google.com...

Debate Round No. 3
No comments have been posted on this debate.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by FuzzyCatPotato 2 years ago
FuzzyCatPotato
shakuntalaoculus_de_logicaTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro had more solid arguments as to the non-newness of Dean's work.
Vote Placed by Phoenix61397 2 years ago
Phoenix61397
shakuntalaoculus_de_logicaTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: This was an utter destruction of Pro's argument. He didn't have a chance. He used no productive sources and awful grammar. Con refuted his points easily in the first round and spent the rest of the debate explaining the debate to his opponent, who clearly didn't understand or didn't want to understand his own topic. 7 points to con.