The Instigator
shakuntala
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
YaHey
Con (against)
Winning
5 Points

colin leslie deans erotic poetry is put down on DDO where similar works would not

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
YaHey
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/30/2014 Category: Arts
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,086 times Debate No: 59033
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (17)
Votes (1)

 

shakuntala

Pro

colin leslie deans erotic poetry is put down non DDO where similar works would not
you can download for free deans poetry from here to see what his poetry is about
http://gamahucherpress.yellowgum.com...

it has been said of deans work
http://www.debate.org...

"This is the single worst, most vulgar, and perverted sense of Literature I have read."
my claims is
1) the naughty bits in Lady Chatterley's Lover a novel by D. H. Lawrence, would not be put down
2) discussing fifty shades of grey would not be put down
3) discussing the naughty bits in Shakespear would not be put down
4)discussing the naughty bits ie incest masturbation in the bible would not be put down

if con says no the above debates would would not be put down then I argue colin leslie deans poetry is put down DDO

for interest
The National Library of Australia regards dean poetry to have cultural value since they have archive/preserved colin leslie dean work
see here
http://pandora.nla.gov.au...
YaHey

Con

Before we have this debate, there is something that I think needs to be addressed. You are Colin Leslie Dean, right? You talk about him/her in the third person, but either you are the BIGGEST fangirl/boy for a relatively unknown poet, you are CLD, or you hired someone that is pretty good at public relations. I mean, I've never heard of this person before seeing your debates, so I guess the advertisement is working. You even give a link to free poetry of CLD. You aren't even trying to be subtle.

Your link is to 1 of 60 debates you have had about this person's poetry, and thus is only the opinion of one. I'm sure you can probably link to where your, um, "debates" have been met with reproach, but you have allowed 8,000 characters for each round. Surely you could have found a few more, no?

Really, it depends on the debate subject. Even narrowing it down to the oh-so-maturely put "naughty bits" of, say, Fifty Shades of Gray, there is still a variety of topics to be had there. For instance, does FSoG promote BDSM or rape culture? One could even have a debate about how a series of glorified fanfiction could be made into a book trilogy, if it happened an appropriate amount of times. One could gain from having a philosophical debate about what sex means in a medium full of metaphor, figurative language, and where one can choose to take a sentence literally or figuratively. I would even argue that a debate about one's opinion, which is truly what you are offering here, not philosophy, not metaphor, pure opinion, and one could even back up their own opinion. However, hashing out the same exact debate in a different dress does not bode well with a public where debates are the common pastime.

Your next sentence is pure gibberish, so I can't respond.

Oh, and thanks for yet another advertisement for Colin Leslie Dean.

Okay, my rebuttals are out of the way. Now it is time to make some points.

Case One: I have alluded to this idea in this very argument before. You see, if my theory that you are either CLD or a vocal advertisement, it makes sense you advertise on the debate section of a debating website, but these topics aren't debates. A forum would be okay, maybe even the opinion section, but there is no rational discourse that can happen with you or the, um, "debates" you have chosen. So, I would say it is not Colin Leslie Dean's work that is being shot down, but it is your arrogant, self-advertisement or obsessive fangirling/boying over a pseudo-celebrity that is being shot down.

Case Two: You're CLD, right? Like, there's no argument at this point, assuredly. You even have debates about this self proclaimed "Australia's leading erotic poet's" idea on mathematical theories. Come on. We're not dumb.

Thanks, and I await your response.
Debate Round No. 1
shakuntala

Pro

point 1
con asks
"You are Colin Leslie Dean, right?"
it is no point to the debate whether I am or not that question is irrelevant

point 2
con says
" I mean, I've never heard of this person before seeing your debates"
that is is irrelevant to the debate
point 3
to my example of put down
con says
"Surely you could have found a few more, no?"

just do a search you will find more
my example I think captures the rest

point 4
con has to show that
colin leslie deans erotic poetry is NOT put down on DDO or show where similar works have been put down

so far con has given no proof of his position

where
I have given an example of my position
YaHey

Con

Actually, whether or not you are CLD is relevant to this debate, since I argued, and you didn't even try to respond to, that your debates are put down, not the work. The next point is also relevant, since I also argue it is your advertisement and obsession with your own work that is being put down.

I won't do your work for you. It is not my job to find other examples.

Actually, the burden of proof is on you to show that your work has been put down where similar works haven't. You haven't shown where a debate on FSoG has been accepted. I also argue that it is the sheer volume of your debates on the same artist that is not being accepted. In fact, your very first debate on this website, you had a serious conversation about whether or not "this is a great modernist poem".

You have given one example out of 60, and you have not shown where a discussion on similar works have been accepted.

Please, for the sake of the voters, try harder next time.
Debate Round No. 2
shakuntala

Pro

con says to my question of him backing up his position with examples
"It is not my job to find other examples.
"
thus cons position is mere assertion with no proof
thus I must wine the debate as I have at least given proof of my position
YaHey

Con

You had like 12 hours or more and you come up with "well you didn't DISPROVE me in a debate where I have sole burden of proof so I WIN." Um, okay. Okay then.

However, you DID NOT meet your burden of proof. My statement that it is not my job to find other examples was in response to you telling me to find more examples to support your position. Thanks for taking me out of context and being deliberately misleading. I'm not sure, but I think that constitutes me getting the conduct point at least.

You also did not show where any of the given works of art have been accepted on DDO. I know you aren't really the debater, being the "leading erotic, uh, poet, in Australia" or the public relations representative for the "leading erotic, uh, POET, in Australia" but there is this thing called the BURDEN OF PROOF. You don't just get to hand it over to me for a cheap win.

I did give exactly one debate you have had about your poetry where a serious conversation ensued. You gave one, and I gave one that shows that you are wrong. I also proposed that it is your offensively unsubtle advertisement tactics that have been shot down, but I see no comment on that one. Deny, deny, deny, am I right? Or, no, it's "Say nothing and maybe they'll forget."

So, to summarize, you didn't meet your burden of proof, you didn't respond to my objections to your own example, you didn't respond to my alternate theory about why your debates are met with reproach, and you've been purposefully misleading to try to save your case.
Debate Round No. 3
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Eggsample 2 years ago
Eggsample
Hahahah
Posted by KhalifV 2 years ago
KhalifV
Lol!
Posted by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
wtf is this
Posted by oculus_de_logica 2 years ago
oculus_de_logica
Icelantic letters aren't popular with DDO it seems.

Replaced with English letters.

""Ljod
1] Kvaedi, bragur, studlad mal eda med hattbundna hrynjanda
2] Ljodraenn texti thott obundinn se
""
Posted by oculus_de_logica 2 years ago
oculus_de_logica
Did you even read my comment? Or did you just blindly repeat yourself because you have no other arguments to offer?

Fighting a debate using semantics and definitions alone is worthless, fallacious and will always be bound to the language and dictionary you use. For instance the Icelantic dictionary ["slenzk or"ab"k, published 1978] , defines "poem" as so.

"Lj"" -n
1] Kv""i, bragur, stu"la" m"l e"a me" h"ttbundna hrynjanda
2] Lj""r"nn texti ""tt "bundinn s"
"

Translated:

"Poem -n
1] a verse. bound, alliterated or with a fixed, traditional rhythm.
2]A poetic text even if unbound.
"

this definition has full room for free verse as a poetic form. More definitions also play on a thin line.

" A verbal composition designed to convey experiences, ideas, or emotions in a vivid and imaginative way, characterized by the use of language chosen for its sound and suggestive power and by the use of literary techniques such as meter, metaphor, and rhyme."[1]

But even if you where to follow the rhythmic definition you still fall flat. Wikipedia "defines" free verse as such:

"Free verse is an open form (see Poetry analysis) of poetry. It does not use consistent meter patterns, rhyme, or any other musical pattern. It thus tends to >>follow the rhythm of natural speech.<<"

Free verse thus is rhythmic and falls under your definition. It's rhythm is defined by the rhythm in natural language.

So we find that semantics debating only works within a fixed dictionary or definition. Conflicting dictionaries pose a problem to your argument. We also find that even in your definition free verse is poetry when the true form and flow of free verse is inspected.

Checkmate. (please don't post the same argument again, it's mute at this point and a waste of time.)

1]http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
Posted by Oromagi 2 years ago
Oromagi
I can't say that I'm surprised that Dean learned how to write poetry from Mirriam-Webster's.
Posted by shakuntala 2 years ago
shakuntala
it is really simple
poetry is
poetry is defined to be

1)a : metrical writing : verse

2): writing that formulates a concentrated imaginative awareness of experience in language chosen and arranged to create a specific emotional response through meaning, sound, and RHYTHM

And rhythm is defined to be
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com......

"A strong, regular repeated pattern of movement or sound

free verse
n
1. (Poetry) unrhymed verse without a metrical pattern

thus from the definition of free verse "which is not in metre- free verse cannot be poetry
Posted by oculus_de_logica 2 years ago
oculus_de_logica
Note the following definitions you yourself provided.

po"et"ry noun \G2;p!3;-&#601;-tr&#275;, -i-tr&#275; also G2;poM5;(-)i-tr&#275;: the writings of a poet : poems
: something that is very beautiful or graceful
: the productions of a poet : poems
: writing that formulates a concentrated imaginative awareness of experience in language chosen and arranged to create a specific emotional response through meaning, sound, and rhythm

So, the main definition offered by you is that poetry is
-the work of a poet
-writing that expresses a thought and imagination of the poet trough, among other ways, the meaning and sound of the text intended to create an effect.

Now, when you're forced to use semantics to prove your point you've already lost. For instance if I where to find the Icelantic dictionary and define poetry trough that I'd find that free verse would fit perfectly into the definition, and as such your 'proof' is localized to a specific language and specific dictionary.
Posted by shakuntala 2 years ago
shakuntala
it is said "Of course, free verse is poetry, unfettered by the western rules of hallowed speech"
wrong free verse is not poetry

This debate is really simple as it just comes down to definition of poetry and definition of free verse
The definitions show con that free verse is not poetry
If you don"t like the definitions that is just to bad
The debate comes down to what is the definition of poetry

So here is how poetry is defined

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

poetry is defined to be

1)a : metrical writing : verse

2): writing that formulates a concentrated imaginative awareness of experience in language chosen and arranged to create a specific emotional response through meaning, sound, and RHYTHM

And rhythm is defined to be
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...

"A strong, regular repeated pattern of movement or sound

Metre is defined to be
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

1
a : systematically arranged and measured rhythm in verse: (1) : rhythm that continuously repeats a single basic pattern <iambic meter> (2) : rhythm characterized by regular recurrence of a systematic arrangement of basic patterns in larger figures <ballad meter>

so from the above definitions poetry is writing that is in metre (ie rythymical ie repeated sounds)

Definition of free verse
http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

free verse
n
1. (Poetry) unrhymed verse without a metrical pattern

thus from the definition of free verse "which is not in metre- free verse cannot be poetry
Posted by Oromagi 2 years ago
Oromagi
The next line of my complaint being that "every line only boils down to "look at me, please." So Dean replies by saying please look at something else I wrote, this time about free verse not being poetry. Notice that there is never an opportunity for discussion only another invitation to another somewhat shabby show.

Of course, free verse is poetry, unfettered by the western rules of hallowed speech. When William Carlos Williams published his refrigerator note to his wife, he did so in acknowledgement that rhythms of ordinary English could be just as lovely as a pentameter of Yeats, that the breaths and breaks of a post-it could convey something sacred as much as an Ode by Keats.

This Is Just To Say

I have eaten
the plums
that were in
the icebox

and which
you were probably
saving
for breakfast

Forgive me
they were delicious
so sweet
and so cold

Williams lived in verse and could sense the satisfactions of divinity in the freedom of ordinary things.

Free verse is not the absence of meter, it is the acknowledgement that the measure of everyday speech is also beautiful. I wish I could say I found anything so natural or lovely in the poetry of Dean.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Phoenix61397 2 years ago
Phoenix61397
shakuntalaYaHeyTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro didn't really argue other than the first round and therefore didn't fulfill their burden. Awful s&g on the pro side. As pro essentially refused to debate, I give con conduct as well.