The Instigator
Valar_Dohaeris
Pro (for)
Winning
56 Points
The Contender
Mr.Chorlton
Con (against)
Losing
21 Points

crossfit is better than bodybuilding health wise.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 11 votes the winner is...
Valar_Dohaeris
Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 1/6/2015 Category: Health
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,728 times Debate No: 67925
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (11)

 

Mr.Chorlton

Con

I accept the debate and thank you to PRO for an interesting and relevant debate.
It seems that many people are having this same argument these days.

Before starting I would like to point out that the burden of proof is on PRO. He/she is claiming that, health wise, crossfit is better than bodybuilding and so in order to win this debate he/she will have to demonstrate why this claim is true.

Good luck to my opponent.
Let the debate begin.
Debate Round No. 1
Valar_Dohaeris

Pro

Crossfit - http://www.crossfit.com...


1) Health Impacts

In comparison to body building, cross fit focuses on core muscles and training that help you improve your health over all. Body Building focuses on building muscle mass only, by lifting heavy weights in order to see results. If you are trying to tone down, it's cutting that intake and lifting multiple reps in order to tone up. The key thing for body building is protein. The amount a body builder intakes can be up to 3 x their body weight daily. Massive amounts of protein can be as bad as smoking in ways. High protein intake can link to cancer, strain on your kidneys and damage your internal organs ( http://www.fitday.com... ) . Overall the requiremnts to get hte results you want to see, are based around the intake and amount you intake. Massive amounts as most body buidling requires, can leave you with long term negative effects.

While cross fit focuses on natural bod building, running, and doing things that don't require you to lift and excess amount of weight. It helps improve your heart, your metabolism, and your energy on a daily basis. ( http://www.menshealth.com... ) It can focus on cycles that help improve your cardio, and breathing techniques.


a) Body Building has negative impacts on your heart while cross fit trains it

Lifting heavy weights or lifting weights frequently can lead to heart failure. (
http://military-fitness.military.com... ) Again this fits back into the goal. Most of body bundling focuses around getting big fast, while lifting weights is normally a good thing when you add that in with the amount they are in taking as far as protein, creatine, and other supplements and food it can actually strain the heart to the point that it can damage it.

Cross fit is not about getting big fast but about working on and improving your health. It puts less strain on your heat because the goals are different. There are often cycles that revolve around self improvement, and eating right. Not in taking to get big, but in taking to actually improve your health.
Mr.Chorlton

Con

First a little about my background. I have worked in the health and fitness industry for 10 years now and have seen many fads come and go. After being in this industry for 10 years I'd like to think I know a bit about the subject. I can tell you right away that the vast majority of what PRO said in round 2 was complete nonsense.

Firstly, PRO seems to have a lack of understanding about bodybuilding. Bodybuilding is not just about becoming a muscle bound meat head. These types of body building exercises are very important for people such as the elderly, people in rehab, in fact is great for the general population. You can increase muscular endurance, size and strength and can place the emphasis on which ever you want with the other two increasing also but at a slower rate. Crossfit is not ideal for the elderly, people in rehab and is widely prone to injure the general population but I'll say more about this later.

Secondly, PRO must be slightly deluded if he thinks that crossfitters are not obsessed by protein. The majority of the ones I have met are obsessed with the, so called, paleo diet which has now morphed into an Atkins type diet (Extremely high protein). Crossfitters can learn a lot from professional body builders about nutrition for they are experts at what the body needs. To transform a body to a far greater size whilst maintaining 3/4% body fat means they know what they're doing. It is quite absurd to compare eating large amounts of protein to smoking. There is no scientific study that has convincingly linked high protein to cancer or kidney failure, it's just myth that gets spread around the Internet (like the website you used as a source). Results are not based on protein intake, results are subjective to what your goals are. An elderly man may want to prevent muscle wastage which happens in old age, a woman in rehab may want to help an old injury ect. Results are based on good nutrition, good training and generally being healthy.

Let's now look at the other outrageous claims, "Lifting heavy weights or lifting weights frequently can lead to heart failure." This is simply not true. Some people say the same about marathon runners and other physical activity. The only people who suffer from heart failure are people with bad hearts. Why do they have bad hearts? Because of living an unhealthy lifestyle (food, alcohol, tobacco, drugs). As I said before, results are based on doing the right things in all areas of life.

The majority of PRO arguments against body building exercises are based purely off stereotypes and Internet myths. many of these myths are encouraged in crossfit gyms, of which I have been to many. So let's look at crossfit in the next round to see how it compares in reality to the traditional exercises. That is what bodybuilding exercises are by the way, the traditional exercises that professional athletes add into their training routines. I will explain the effect of each method for you so you can decide for yourself.






Debate Round No. 2
Valar_Dohaeris

Pro

My adversary asserts he has being doing (x) for (x) amount of time. That does not give credibility to his argument. I could state I am a nuclear engineer so I am my own source. This is not viable. For what it's work i've been working out for nearly 10 years and can attest that it actually does harm, and basic science contradicts his claims.

My adversary asserts there are no negative effects from high protein which is false. Your body can only digest so much protein hourly and daily. Most of the high protein foods, come from animals and other things that are high in saturated fat. Eating these types of foods with high sat (that goes hand in hand with protein and body building) can cause all the aforementioned diseases. Anything from diabetes to coronary heart disease. Note this study from the American Heart Assoc. ( http://www.heart.org... )
So despite what my adversary asserts common foods associated with body building can cause a great deal of harm, and this is especially true of protein. As I stated only so much protein can be digested hourly and daily, so taking more than enough in actually causes strain of the body leading to other negative health impacts. For 150 pounds its around 136 gram
( http://www.livestrong.com... )

All of this is associated with body building. ( http://www.bodybuilding.com... ) Take the typical diets. It usually includes chicken, steak, turkey, tuna, and all other types of meat that as I stated, can and will have negative impacts on a body. This is especially true with older people.

a)Crossfit

This is where cross fit divers. It teaches you to eat all the essential foods your body needs. Anywhere from the right amount of vitamins, to vegetables, to protein, to the right type of fat. It does not just focus on the workout and the results you see from your body, but the results you see from within. It is a comprehensive workout that revolves around building up your body and making it health. There are types of triangle workouts that help you builing up your cardio, endurance, and metabolism. The goal is to target almost every mucle group in your body by working out with full body workouts. It teaches you to break your limits and push your body for a greater degree of health.

People that do mma often use cross fit because of the strain it puts on your body. If they simply weight lifted they would not be able to stand in the ring long enough to last. Programs like cross fit actually improve their cardiovascular activity, and make them healthy overall. That by itself should affirm the resolution. A sport that requires you to be in peak conditions train with a program that gives them to you.

( http://www.muscleandfitness.com... )
Mr.Chorlton

Con

Unfortunately PRO has simply repeated his argument from round 2. PRO also seems to be missing a key point in this debate which is that crossfit is a form of exercise, bodybuilding is a form of exercise. Pro has wasted most of this debate talking about diets. As I already pointed out in round 2 there is no difference between people who do crossfit and those who do traditional bodybuilding exercises when it comes to diet. There is no crossfit diet, there is no bodybuilding diet. There is only eating healthily and unhealthily. People from both practices do both.

Now let's talk about CF.
Crossfit gyms often have a "workout of the day" which involves doing a number of exercises as fast as possible. These exercises tend to be high energy, complex moves for high reps. These exercises are also done in bodybuilding with one key difference...Rest periods. Crossfit doesn't have rest periods, so when doing complex lifting moves when your body is highly fatigued then your lifting form gets very sloppy, making you prone to injury. [1]Crossfit has a huge injury rate because of this, and the coaches encourage you to do it. That voice inside your head that says "stop, you're done" is ignored over the voice of the coach saying "KEEP GOING!". You are taught a habit of ignoring your own instinct because a certified trainer is telling you otherwise. So what does it take to become a crossfit coach and teach people how to safely lift weights numerous times? Attend a two day course.[2] That's it. Kind of explains this video then [3].

The idea in traditional bodybuilding type exercises is that you lift the weights in good form, use up the energy inside the muscle and then stop to rest whilst the muscle gets some energy back before you repeat. This method is safe and gets you good results which is why you see boxers, marathon runners, football/soccer players doing this type of exercise on top of their cardio routine. It strengthens their joints instead of breaking them down like in CF. Can you imagine and elderly person doing crossfit? Someone with spinal problems? No. It is simply too dangerous especially when the coaches don't know anything about physiology. All they know are the stereotypes and myths about other training disciplines which they take pleasure in collectively ridiculing. If only they had a clue.

You get an idea of these myths from PRO's arguments. "lifting heavy causes heart failure". It's just nonsense. Source [1] is a good example of how crossfit caused kidney failure which is not nonsense. PRO talks about how great crossfit is for your metabolism...well your metabolism is based on the amount of lean tissue you have in your body. The more lean tissue you have the more calories you need to maintain it. But wait? Bodybuilding builds lean tissue. Bodybuilding is way better for increasing your metabolism.

[1]http://www.livestrong.com...
[2]http://www.crossfit.com...
[3]https://www.youtube.com...;
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Blade-of-Truth 2 years ago
Blade-of-Truth
RFD - This debate came down to 3 key arguments: Health impact, accessibility, and effects of training. I think sources play a big role in this decision as well, which I'll expand on further down. In regards to health impacts, Pro argues that crossfit allows for more exercises including jogging, running, etc. Con counters this by stating that old people can't do crossfit, which also applies to the accessibility point. Moreso, the effects of protein on the heart is given by Pro as a neg. I don't see how this is relevant though as neither create an obligation for protein intake nor is there any evidence given to show that one prefers protein over the other. I'm forced to place this aside and look for better arguments which would actually sway me to one side or the other. The effects on the heart is a solid point by Pro, but Con challenges the authenticity of that claim based on his own background in the fitness industry. However, Pro actually presents supporting evidence, whereas Con bases his arguments off his own experience. This might work when telling stories to friends, but in debate you need supporting evidence to validate such claims. I'm left with evidence-backed claims, and rebuttals based on Con's own "experience". While I do believe he has such experience, based on the degree of knowledge on the topic he seemed to have, it gives no weight to the legitimacy of his claims as they are ultimately unsupported. By the end, I'm left with strong evidence-backed arguments from Con in the final round, yet can't count them since it's an unfair advantage. With crossfit shown to incorportate cardio into the workouts, whereas bodybuilding doesn't necessarily always include cardio, this leans me to Pro. Based on the rebuttals given, I'm awarding this to Pro, as I believe he had the strongest arguments backed by the most evidence. I agree with previous judges that due to the lack of real analysis I'm left leaning on my own preference.
Posted by whiteflame 2 years ago
whiteflame
Mr.Chorlton, I can't give you credit for arguments to which Pro cannot respond unless they're rebuttals to points made in his final round. If I did, all you'd have to do is save all of your best points, present them in the final round, and then win by default since Pro cannot respond. I'd have to buy all of your points on their face, and that simply provides a massive unfair advantage for the person giving the last round.
Posted by Mr.Chorlton 2 years ago
Mr.Chorlton
Thanks for the feedback whiteflame.....PRO set the debate so that I could only write so much before running out of characters. Because of this I had to split my argument in two parts. I couldn't write nothing in the 3rd round. I don't see this as a reason to disregard my 3rd round argument because the debate has to end somewhere.
Posted by whiteflame 2 years ago
whiteflame
RFD (Pt. 1):

So, I was planning something short here when I first looked this over. Now... well, I've got to take some time to explain this. So I'm going to go through the major points and see if I can't clarify.

1) Protein

I really can't explain why this was here as a point. For one thing, as Con pointed out, protein intake seems to be a problem associated with both crossfit and bodybuilding. Pro never rebutted that. For another, it just seems tangential to the debate. This is a comparison of how well crossfit training compares to bodybuilding with regards to health impacts, not a debate on what people tend to do on the side. I understand that protein intake is associated with these exercises because of the need for nutrients, but unless Pro can show that bodybuilding uniquely requires that intake, all I can say is that this is a bad habit of many of those who engage in it. That's not a reason to reject bodybuilding, but a reason to reject high protein intake. The claim in R3 that crossfit teaches you to eat well is not bolstered by any support, so I find it difficult to believe that a type of training consistently includes eating standards.
Posted by whiteflame 2 years ago
whiteflame
(Pt. 2)

2) Effects of extreme training

This I can understand better, but it still seems tangential. Anything taken to an extreme is bad for you. Lifting excess weight is bad for you, as I'm sure crossfit training can be bad for you if you do it too rapidly too often. What Pro is referring, at least to my knowledge, is cardiomyopathy, as many athletes who work themselves very hard can get enlarged hearts that have more trouble pumping blood. However, I get no specific reasoning as to why bodybuilding has this problem, but crossfit doesn't. So even if I'm buying that the extremes of training should be included, Pro never met the burden of showing that there's a difference here. The fact that many athletes in a specific sport (MMA) use crossfit doesn't really prove anything about its benefits, just that it's highly trusted by that group of people (and admitting that it puts a lot of strain on the body). So I disregard this point.

3) Effects of training

For an issue that is most central to this debate, I'm surprised this got so little time. Pro tells me that basic crossfit training improves your heart, metabolism, and energy. Con tells me that bodybuilding is more accessible to a wider array of people. Con also gives me some information on why crossfit is bad, but only in the final round, where Pro doesn't get a chance to respond to it. I think it's a good argument, and I think it should have shown up in R2, since the point seems to be that you can titrate bodybuilding, but you can't do the same for crossfit, thus making it the only one that always accesses the problems of extreme training.
Posted by whiteflame 2 years ago
whiteflame
(Pt. 3)

So, now, the question is, which do I weigh more heavily? General benefits to all the people who can do it, or more accessibility? Neither debater weighs these issues for me, or even spends much time countering the opposing debater's claims, so you're leaving that up to me. And honestly, this could have swung either way because it entirely depends on my perception of what's most important.

I end up leaning Pro, mainly because Con only provides me with a couple of populations that don't compose the majority of the population. If I'm making a judgment call on what is healthiest for the majority, Pro is giving me the argument to get there. Con is giving me a reason why a sizable minority wouldn't be so lucky, but that's not enough to negate the resolution. Ergo, I vote Pro.
Posted by Mr.Chorlton 2 years ago
Mr.Chorlton
I find it a little curious how 16kadams votes on every single one of your debates and never against you
Posted by Mr.Chorlton 2 years ago
Mr.Chorlton
oh ok...not sure what that is but I'll leave it to you.
Posted by Valar_Dohaeris 2 years ago
Valar_Dohaeris
It won't be a draw. We can post it in the unvoted place :)
Posted by Mr.Chorlton 2 years ago
Mr.Chorlton
Only 3 days risks it being a 0-0 draw rendering the whole thing pointless
11 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by warren42 2 years ago
warren42
Valar_DohaerisMr.Chorlton
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: If Con is an expert then it'd be an alright debate. Since he makes this claim, but we don't know for sure, and his whole case is centered around his own expertise, I feel unable to believe him. Pro wins.
Vote Placed by InnovativeEphemera 2 years ago
InnovativeEphemera
Valar_DohaerisMr.Chorlton
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: If this had been a 7-point vote the cards may have fallen differently. As it happens, Pro managed to refute Con's position satisfactorily while defending his own. However, if Con had focused on an obvious health disadvantage of Crossfit (the rampant prevalence of rhabdomyolysis in Crossfit members) then this may well have resulted in a win. Both provided some references but in a science-weighted debate more sources would have been better on both sides. The debate also fell into the 'standard diet of crossfitters/body builders' which I think is relevant, but not relevant to deviate to for the entire debate. Both sides should have stuck more to the actual training aspects.
Vote Placed by Blade-of-Truth 2 years ago
Blade-of-Truth
Valar_DohaerisMr.Chorlton
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments.
Vote Placed by MyDinosaurHands 2 years ago
MyDinosaurHands
Valar_DohaerisMr.Chorlton
Who won the debate:-Vote Checkmark
Reasons for voting decision: Pro failed to prove that all bodybuilders consume more protein than CrossFitters, and as far as I can tell, both sides' most important points were mostly based on assertion. As such, the win goes to Con, because the BoP was on Pro.
Vote Placed by BLAHthedebator 2 years ago
BLAHthedebator
Valar_DohaerisMr.Chorlton
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: I think Pro won this on both arguments. Con attempted to refute pros first argument about negative impacts, stating that his argument was untrue, even when pro sourced it right up. Thus, con did nothing to disprove this point. Pros second point about dieting was also inadequately refuted, because once again con tried to shoot this down by stating it was simply untrue. I would like to advise con not to simply declare something false when refuting someone's arguments, as it is inadequate and does barely anything without a source to prove so, which you did not have. Con even made newer arguments in the last round. Thus this is a clear win for pro.
Vote Placed by Atmas 2 years ago
Atmas
Valar_DohaerisMr.Chorlton
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: I have to lean Pro on this one. I was not swayed to either side as to which exercise type is actually healthier, nor was healthier or health actually defined. However, Con showed poor conduct by attacking Pro, made more unsubstantiated claims than Pro did, and did not spend enough time presenting the positives of bodybuilding. If I were a middle aged man attempting to choose between the two, I would choose Crossfit because it seems as though it would revitalize my worn out body, Con has not succeeded in convincing me that crossfit would do more damage than bodybuilding (even if it does).
Vote Placed by Commondebator 2 years ago
Commondebator
Valar_DohaerisMr.Chorlton
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: The majority of Con's arguments were biased claims that really he did not refute. Con did not have sources (2nd round) and he was implying that since he is in the body building industry, it is an automatic win. Con threw claims such as "That is nonsense" or "Your delusional" Which I felt like was attacking pro personally, without much reasoning.
Vote Placed by TheRussian 2 years ago
TheRussian
Valar_DohaerisMr.Chorlton
Who won the debate:-Vote Checkmark
Reasons for voting decision: While both arguments had a lot of baseless claims, Pro made a crucial mistake of not focusing on exercise, but on diet (as Con points out). Good rebuttals on Con's side. Only weakness is his very last point about metabolism, which seems to be a bit of paradox.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 2 years ago
whiteflame
Valar_DohaerisMr.Chorlton
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: Given in comments.
Vote Placed by Craighawley215 2 years ago
Craighawley215
Valar_DohaerisMr.Chorlton
Who won the debate:-Vote Checkmark
Reasons for voting decision: I believe that Pro has mixed up the concept of bodybuilding with the concept of weightlifting. Exclusively weightlifting, and putting on mass can be as physically detrimental as Pro asserts, but bodybuilding in most cases is not unhealthy. Crossfit is essentially a circuit style workout, which bodybuilders tend to incorporate into their routines anyway. One problem that does exist with crossfit is that in many cases, proper workout form is neglected. This actually can be extremely detrimental to health, depending on the scenario. Being that crossfit is simply the competition of a workout style that both groups utilize, it is unfair to say definitively that crossfit is better.