The Instigator
fredman15
Con (against)
Winning
18 Points
The Contender
darkkermit
Pro (for)
Losing
14 Points

do you think it is ok to burn the USA flag

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
fredman15
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/18/2010 Category: Society
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,538 times Debate No: 14082
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (30)
Votes (5)

 

fredman15

Con

It is not ok to burn the American Flag. Because it is our heritage and so many people in America have died for that flag if we burn the American Flag we have basically just turned our back to all of them it is totally wrong to burn the American Flag
darkkermit

Pro

I thank my opponent for instigating this debate.

Clarifications of my position:
-I personally would not burn down the flag. However people have the legal right to do it, and it is not immoral.

Contentions

1) Freedom of expression

The right to burn flags is protected under the Constitution.[1] Our forefathers supported freedom of expression.

""If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."[2]
-George Washington

The American government functions on dissenting opinion and protests. This is how change occurs, movements occur and reduces the threat of tyranny. Dictators hate freedom of speech since it allows dissenting opinion and creating movements against them. Through disallowing freedom of expression, one is going against everything this country is founded on.

2) Property rights

Once you own something, you have the right to do whatever you want for it. This is the nature of capitalism
I bought a flag. I can do what I want with it, including burning.

3) Good for the economy

Many stores are struggling due to recession. These owners and workers work hard to sell these American flags so that they can support their families. However, these stores would not sell enough flags to support themselves if flag burner were illegal.

4) Campfire

Let's say I want to start a campfire and I do not have enough wood. The American flag is a good source to burn.

Rebuttal

1) It is our heritage

It is also part of the American heritage of killing Native Americans, and owning slavery. Based on your logic, one should be able to do it since its 'part of our heritage'. The Nazi flag is also part of the German heritage but I'd burn that flag down if I ever saw one.

2) People have died for that flag

People have also died BECAUSE of the flag. Here is a list of atrocities the American government has done.
-Massacre of Native Americans that originally owned this land
-US assistance of massacre in Indonesia which killed .5 million in 1965.[3]
-Funding of Indonesian occupation of East Timor that killed ~150,000[4]
-The killing of the Vietcong. The Vietcong were looking for independence. Total deaths= over 2 million.[5]
-Funding of MEK a terrorism group dedicated to bombing and overthrowing Iran[6]
-Financing the overthrowing of a popular elected ruler in favor of a dictatorship in Guatemala killing hundreds of thousands.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org...[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org...[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org...[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org...[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org...[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org...[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org...[7]
Debate Round No. 1
fredman15

Con

My opponent made a good comeback but when talking about George Washington and the Flag do you honestly think that he would want the flag burn the father of our country would want to see the American Flag burn even if it is the Freedom of Expression The father of our country would never want that.

The Flag code says the flag should never be dipped to any person or thing. It is flown upside down only as a distress signal.
The flag should not be used as a drapery, or for covering a speakers desk, draping a platform, or for any decoration in general. Bunting of blue, white and red stripes is available for these purposes. The blue stripe of the bunting should be on the top.
The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose. It should not be embroidered, printed or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use. Advertising signs should not be attached to the staff or halyard
The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations.
The flag should never have placed on it, or attached to it, any mark, insignia, letter, word, number, figure, or drawing of any kind.
The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.

there fore the first one says it should never be dipped upon anyone or anything there for it should not be dipped in fire

besides you got your sources from wikipedia anyone can put something up there and it can be the wrong thing

sources
http://www.usflag.org...
darkkermit

Pro

1) Freedom of expression
"My opponent made a good comeback but when talking about George Washington and the Flag do you honestly think that he would want the flag burn the father of our country would want to see the American Flag burn even if it is the Freedom of Expression The father of our country would never want that."

Do you honestly think that the American forefathers, who died to protect our rights, would want the country to become a place that barred freedom of expression? Just because somebody disagrees with one's opinion's does not mean the opinion should be banned.

2) Property rights - Extend Arguments. CON makes no rebuttal.
3) Good for the economy - Extend Arguments. CON makes no rbuttal
4) Campire - Extend Arguments CON makes no rebuttal.

Rebuttals

1) It is our heritage
Heritage =/= Good or moral. Extend arguments. CON does not address
2) People have died for the flag
CON's main argument is about respect here. People have died BECAUSE of the flag. This shows that people have good reasons to disrespect the flag. CON does not dispute this.

CON's main assertion is that my articles come from wikipedia, which makes them wrong. My question is:
Why would Wikipedia be worse than any other website? Any person can create any website. Wikipedia cracks down on vandalism and false information is removed. Hundreds of people contribute to the article, and fact check it. Information is sourced. It adheres to a a neutral position and is the most widely used source. However, just for the fun of it, here is are other sources the also state the same thing as the Wikipedia sources.

Con then makes a long list of what you should not do with the flag. These assertion are not backed up and have nothing to do with the resolution. They are blanket statements. All these statements do is decrease freedom of speech, damage the economy by restraining on what people can sell, and go against property rights.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org...[1]
http://www.georgewashingtonsociety.org...[2]
http://www2.gwu.edu...[3]
http://www.nybooks.com...[4]
http://www.vietnampix.com...[5]
http://www.opendemocracy.net...[6]
http://www.gwu.edu...[7]
Debate Round No. 2
fredman15

Con

But if you honestly think that someone would want to burn the American flag who cares if it is freedom of expression why would you want to if you live in America and you love the country you live in why would you want to burn the American Flag. But Iam asking you as in my opponent do you think the father of our country would want to see the American Flag burn yes or no
darkkermit

Pro

Extend all arguments from Round 2. Not one of those arguments had been countered.

"Why would you want to if you live in America and you love your country
"
This implies two things. One you live in America. Second you love America.
The debate topic (more like question) is "Do you think it s ok to burn the USA flag?" includes everyone, not just citizens and those who live in the United states.
Second off, those citizens that live in the United States have a right to protest against it. Just because you live in a country does not mean you love everything about about it. Emigration is a very difficult process.

"Why would you want to burn the American flag?"

Protest against what America has turned to and good source for campfire. There are many reasons to dislike America as shown in previous rounds. I have not even brushed on the many other reasons to dislike America including how the federal government has increased it's power over the year and has involved itself with unnecessary affairs.

"Do you think the father of our countryould want to see the american flag burn yes or no?"

I can not answer that, since I can not speak to them due to their deaths. However two things.
(a) George Washington warned against the party system, accumulation of debt, and of foreign alliances.
The united States Government has the biggest debt in the world. It is heavily involved in foreign policy to the extent we are called the "World Police". And the United States relies heavily on the party system. So if he were alive today, and saw what America had become, he might burn the American flag.

(b) Just because I do not want to watch something does not mean one does not want it to be disallowed or against it. I do not want to watch gay porn (unless it's lesbian porn). However, I do not object to it.
Debate Round No. 3
fredman15

Con

ok one thing porn is way different than the flag. And when you protest by burning the American Flag it is not saying anything expect you are an idiot. and also George Washington even if he saw our country today yes he would be disappointed but he would never burn the American Flag he love that flag enough to keep it standing in battle and to dedicate most of his life to America the American Flag and our Constitution. Our American Flag is a symbol of our nation and it does not deserve to be burned what so ever
darkkermit

Pro

I'd like to thank my opponent for the debate.

CON has not addressed any of my contentions and all his points has been rebutted. Extend all arguments.

"When you protest by burning the American Flag it is not saying anything expect that you are an idiot"

Ad Hominem fallacy and non sequitur. In no way does CON address how flag burning makes you an idiot.

idiot - an utterly foolish or senseless person.

"Also George Washington even if he saw our country today yes he would be disappointed but he would never burn the American Flag he love that flag enough to keep it standing in battle and to dedicate most of his life to America the American Flag and our Constitution. "

Which is why if he saw America turn out the way it has today, he would be against America. However whether Geroge Washington would or wouldn't burn the flag is an irrelevant argument since it is impossible to know whether he would or not. Nor is a logical argument point since it commits the logical fallacy of appeal to emotion and appeal to authority.

Conduct -Tied
Grammar/Spelling - Pro
Con uses run on sentences.

Ex: Because it is our heritage and so many people in America have died for that flag if we burn the American Flag we have basically just turned our back to all of them it is totally wrong to burn the American Flag

This should be: It is our heritage and so many people in America have died for that flag. If we burn the American Flag, we have basically just turned our back to all of them. It is wrong to burn the American Flag

Convincing Arguments - CON does not address my arguments, uses logic fallacies. I have made a rebuttal for all of CON's points.

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.
Debate Round No. 4
30 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by quarterexchange 5 years ago
quarterexchange
He probably forgot he even commented here. I completely forgot I commented here until I began sifting through random debates out of boredom. Lately it's been like reading someone else's writing when I look over what I said a month or two ago.
Posted by darkkermit 5 years ago
darkkermit
Thank your for your apology. I'm still waiting for Loserboi's apology now, since he's the only one that seems to actually think that fredman15 was right.
Posted by quarterexchange 5 years ago
quarterexchange
I didn't know that he used his multi account to win.

I was naive when I first joined this site, it's ridiculous that you lost and I apologize for saying otherwise. I'm not being sarcastic.

I wish it was still open so I could counter out his vote.
Posted by darkkermit 5 years ago
darkkermit
quarterexchange, are you retarded? Basic math shows that I'm at the victory if he and uglypersonsareawesome (multi account of friedman) didn't vote I would have won. If EITHER one of them didn't vote, I would have won.
Posted by quarterexchange 5 years ago
quarterexchange
Even if fredman15 did not vote at all, he still would have won.
Posted by fredman15 5 years ago
fredman15
thank you loderboi for backing me up and all yall are lame
Posted by Loserboi 6 years ago
Loserboi
Those who are calling Fredman a fail and saying he shouldn't have won... well maybe you should have voted then
Posted by unitedandy 6 years ago
unitedandy
This debate shows why the rules need to change on voting - pathetic.
Posted by flamebreath 6 years ago
flamebreath
you are completely disgusting fredman15.
Posted by flamebreath 6 years ago
flamebreath
i am sorry fredman15, but i will like to state that most freshman's do not result to cheating in other to win a debate so rather than calling freshman's immature, look into your own flaws first. (i am a sophomore)
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by uglypeopleareawesome 6 years ago
uglypeopleareawesome
fredman15darkkermitTied
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Vote Placed by Palin2012 6 years ago
Palin2012
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Vote Placed by fredman15 6 years ago
fredman15
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Vote Placed by urchin 6 years ago
urchin
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Vote Placed by Shestakov 6 years ago
Shestakov
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