does apocalypse mean the end of civilization?
well, since i am a religious person, i believe that apocalypse is the final war between good and bad, in which people who are tired of being pawns to the ever growing power of the elites who even right now, control more than 99 percent of wealth and power of this world, would gather around the leaders who are send by god to free them from this servitude and would fight for their freedom.
well i wanted to post this to see what you guys think of re-coming of Jesus and Mahdi and what kind of world you see form after the apocalypse.
excuse my bad English :)
and i agree that a lot of people would die in that war, but only those who are content with the direction the world is moving which is more power and oppression for the wealthy and more abjection for the poor.
If apocalypse is defined as the Islamic apocalypse, then yes, it will be the end of civilization since the definition of civilised is having an advanced or humane culture, society, etc. Thus, enable to prove that my opponents version of the apocalypse would mean the end of civilisation, I must prove that an Islam ran super-state will not fit this definition.
In an Islam ran world, women won't have any rights, democracy will be abolished, people will commit beastiality and sell the meat to the next town over, and grown men will be able to commit pedophilia with 9 year old girls. Every aspect of modern society will disappear and humanity will fall to barbaricism called Islam. It will be lawful to beat your wife as per Qur'an 4:34, and raping your wife will also be permitted as per Qur'an 2:223. Does such a society sound humane in the slightest? Thus, the apocalypse as defined by my opponent will mean the end of civilisation.
"the definition of civilised is having an advanced or humane culture, society, etc " is what we have right now called an advanced and humane world? just having advanced tools make the civilization advanced? how about people? Americans are dying from obesity, while Africans are starving to death. is this humane in your eyes? Chinese people are working for 10+ hours a day and have to stay at their job, is this humane in your eyes? Israeli regime is killing and driving Palestinian away from their homes. humane? America selling weapons to opposing tribes in Africa so they can keep fighting and they can keep pillaging. humane? Saudi Arabia and turkey (USA's allies in the region) are funding ISIS. humane?
"In an Islam ran world, women won't have any rights". since the definition of human and freedom in different in Islam and western culture, the type of right that they talk about is different. when a westerner says freedom, it normally means free to put on revealing clothing, having intimacy before marriage, drinking alcohol, ... (meaning freedom in the animal side of humans). in Islam, when we say freedom, it means freedom in spiritual side, and in the animal side, as long as it does not chain the divine side of humans. meaning, Islam does not allow things like alcohol, or drugs, because they hinder the ability of humans to think. and if you were to specify with more detail what rights are you talking about i could address them better here.
"democracy will be abolished": read before talking man. prophet of Islam counseled with his people in all the major and minor issues that related to them. and u think democracy exists today? if all the countries in the world say something and America says otherwise, which on will be approved? what is veto right? can u explain please?
"people will commit beastiality and sell the meat to the next town over" i wonder where did you dig this one up. bestiality is considered a great taboo in Islam and if someone commits it, according to the rules of Islam, the animal is killed, burned, and buried deep inside the ground and the person responsible will be sentenced.
"grown men will be able to commit pedophilia with 9 year old girls" for marriage, the woman and man need to be ready. and readiness is defined by whether or not they are physically ready, and whether they are emotionally and mentally ready for marriage. the least age for marriage in Muslim countries is like 15-16 years and even that's very rare. most will postpone it until like 23 or more
" Every aspect of modern society will disappear and humanity will fall to barbarism called Islam." if you are judging Islam with Taliban or Alqaeda or Isis, then i invite you to read about the origin of those groups. Taliban and Alqaeda and Isis are funded by Saudi Arabia which is the biggest ally of US in the region. Taliban group wad formed by us to prevent advance of soviets in Afghanistan. to form Isis, American officials visited more than 30 countries to gather troops. don't you think that it's strange that Isis is attacking all the countries in the region but not Israel?
"It will be lawful to beat your wife as per Qur'an 4:34" Quran is just text and role of explaining and deciphering it was on prophet and imams. and in their words, the only way that a man can hit his wife, is a very light hit, without making any pain, and in their words it is said the extent is "like hitting with your toothbrush stick, which is like 5 CM long wood. and the reason for it is to show a little bit of authority without causing pain or damage and even that is after other steps to correct the behavioral problems that you see in your wife.
Islam gives women more rights than man and it is provable.
"raping your wife will also be permitted as per Qur'an 2:223" by rape you mean undesired sexual advance?
women only have two responsibilities according to Islam after their marriage. they are not responsible to make food or wash the dishes or do laundry. they don't even have to give milk to the baby. according to Islam, women are not servants, so no man can treat his wife as a servant. those two responsibilities is one: to accept man whenever he desires, and to not leave house or invite other people over without man's allowing. only these two.
"Does such a society sound humane in the slightest? " this is the society that we're after: society of peace and security. society of wealth and brotherhood. society in which everyone are trying to help each other in their quest to seek god. it is said that in that society, people are searching high and low to find other people to lend money to and help, but can not find anyone. it is a society in which everyone will be a man of god, freed from chains of Satan. the world will reveal it's treasures for people who have found and are perusing their true goal in life. sky will rain on the lands and there will be no desert left in the world. for people who no longer care about money, knowledge and science will progress very rapidly and they will find a lot more about themselves and the world.
well, tell me, does such a society sound humane or the one we're living in?
So basically an Islam ran super-state isn't the end of civilisation because we weren't civilised to begin with? And your examples are pre ridculous, Americans dying because of obesity isn't inhumane, Africans dying of starvation is inhumane, but I doubt this will be solved because the Islamic Messiah (which will be like 1,000,000 times as bad as the false prophet Mhammed) comes along and- slaughters all the Jews- excuse me? And the Israelis aren't kiling the Palestinians, this happened before Israel was established and it was the United States, and I know of no instance where the US is funding both sides of a war between African Tribes.
In regards to your second paragraph, you are absolutely wrong, in western culture 'rights' is defined as life, liberty, and property, there are other less baic ones such as the right to bodily autonomy, the right to bear arms, the right to free speech, the right to privacy, the right to trial by jury, etc. Which Islam denies women by allowing their hsband to beat m in 4:34, rape them in 2:223, and be subject to FGM under the Hadith. On the other hand, additional books such as the Talmud say really terrrible things too so I will leave this out.
And democracy does exist today, America doesn't tell other countries how to run theirs, infact we have this thing called the Monroe Doctrine which prevents us from doing that. Also, Islam is not compatible with democracy, see Qur'an 33:36 and Qur'an 12:40.
Also, I dug the thig up in regards to not buying meat from the next town over from a Muslim teacher, sure he could be teaching something contrary to the Qur'an, but keep in mind you didn't provide any verses. You do the same thing with pedophilia, you provide no Qur'an verses to back them. See Sunan Abu Dawud 2116.
Stop with the Anti-Sematism, ISIS does attack Israel . Also, Qur'an 4:34 never says that you can't hurt your wife, it says beat them, also, the Qur'an doesn't give women more rights, that's why a womans testamony is only worth half a mans testamony in court, see Qur'an 2:282. Also see Qur'an 2:228 and 4:3. Bukhari 6:301 says that women are both unintelligent and unreligious:
"[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.”
"[Muhammad said] 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' The women replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her religion.”
In regards to humane-ness, Qur'an 5:33 says this:
Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,
check out the number of people killed in war in the 20th century. how civilized you think that is? is civilization only defined by having modern tools and being prosper? almost every new invention is first used for military if it has a use for it, and then for other branches of science. look at the number of nuclear bombs that countries are amassing. are they just decorations? if this amount of budget went to do something humane, would there still be hunger in the world?
and you have to give me a proof as to why you know that Islam ran state would be the end of civilization.
"I doubt this will be solved because the Islamic Messiah (which will be like 1,000,000 times as bad as the false prophet Mhammed) comes along and- slaughters all the Jews- excuse me?"
what is your proof for that? and who ever said that Jews will be slaughtered? Jews and Christians will be allowed to continue their practice of their religion.
"I know of no instance where the US is funding both sides of a war between African Tribes." well how about you check this document to begin with? "NSSM200"
"in western culture 'rights' is defined as life, liberty, and property" so why on earth USA killed more that one million people in iraq? why did they use radioactive ammunition in iraq and then sanctioned medicine for eight years that resulted in the death of more that half a million iraqi children?
"the right to bodily autonomy" proves my point
"the right to bear arms" even if children are killing children in America? you have six year old killing six year olds. you have kids opening fire on other kids in school. are peoples lives less important than the benefit of some companies?
"the right to free speech". what was with all those anti communism propaganda you had a while ago? can someone talk against and research about Holocaust? why is USA supporting Saudi Arabia who is killing and beheading people just for asking questions?
"the right to privacy" don't you know why internet was created? what is NSA doing? google?
"the right to trial by jury" haven't you heard about Abu Ghraib prison? how about USA sending prisoners to countries in which torture is legal in? haven't you heard about Waterboarding and America's use of it?
"Which Islam denies women by allowing their husband to beat m in 4:34, rape them in 2:223, and be subject to FGM under the Hadith. " this was answered above. and as for FGM, women are allowed to do partial FGM, not complete. and its their decision to make and no one can force them. and i have never heard anyone actually do it in my country.
"And democracy does exist today". as i said before, democracy exists only when supporting the benefits of countries with veto right. otherwise they can just veto every decision that all the other countries make.
"Islam is not compatible with democracy, see Qur'an 33:36 and Qur'an 12:40. " Islam believes in the rule of God. if what exists right know that is called democracy, has caused the death of more than 160 million people in 20th century, and a never-ending state of war, don't you think that this is not working? all those people who died in Afghanistan and Iraq, was that not done by democracy of USA? didn't they have their right of speech?
and if Moses lived today and ordered you to do something, would you do it or not? or would you kill him like Zakariya and john as well?
"Also, I dug the thig up in regards to not buying meat from the next town over from a Muslim teacher, sure he could be teaching something contrary to the Qur'an, but keep in mind you didn't provide any verses."
if you want to prove that there is something is Islam that i as a Muslim don't believe, you have to provide a verse for it, not me!
"You do the same thing with pedophilia, you provide no Qur'an verses to back them. See Sunan Abu Dawud 2116."
again, provide a verse that pedophilia exists in Islam. and since i am a Shia, give me a hadith from my text not whatever book you like.
"Stop with the Anti-Sematism, ISIS does attack Israel" just search these in google or something "isis destruction in syria" "isis destruction in iraq" and if you were to search the same thing for Israel, the pictures are from Syria and Iraq as well.
"that's why a womans testamony is only worth half a mans testamony in court"
Islam wants women to remain women and men to remain men. women are more kind and caring and have stronger emotions. because of that, a woman can not be a judge in Islam. because to be a judge, the person has to put away his emotion and become strict. he should care only about the facts and don't let emotions get in the way. if a woman were to become a judge, she would need to act and think strictly and without emotion. and if you do something for a while, that will take root it you, meaning a woman judge wont be able to care and express emotions in her family life as much as before. and that is what Islam is trying to prevent.
and as for their testimony, it is allowed, but because of the same emotions and caring, it has to be backed by the testimony of another woman.
"[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence." the intelligence is the wrong translation of the word, the word that Muhammad used, was "عقل" which can somewhat be translated as wisdom, and the reason for that is their lack of strictness compared to man and their more emotional decision making. and by no means it is a bad thing. it means they are more soft hearted than men.
"[Muhammad said] 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' The women replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her religion."
religion is accepting god and his orders with heart, declaring them with tongue, and doing ones responsibilities with body.
and its true that women can neither pray nor fast during their menses. and by the above explanation, during that time a part of their religion is unwillingly taken away from them. but it doesn't mean that they cant rise to the level of men or above them in religion. take Mary for example, she rose above the level of Zakariya who was the prophet of that time in faith. or wife of Pharaoh is mentioned in Quran as the example of faith "And Allah sets forth an example to those who believe the wife of Firon when she said: My Lord! build for me a house with Thee in the garden and deliver me from Firon and his doing, and deliver me from the unjust people:" Quran 66:11
"In regards to humane-ness, Qur'an 5:33 says this: ..."
well, if someone wages war against god and his messenger, and corrupts the land, dont you think that there should be a punishment for them? if someone kills a hundred faithful people, or kills a hundred sinless children, don't you think that they should be killed? for less crimes there are less punishments like being exiled or paying a fine.
take a look at these
massacre deir yassin
massacre sabra and shatila
the massacre of khan younis
the massacre of qana
the massacre of jenin
Gaza flotilla raid
what kind of misunderstanding allows a country to use napalm bombs on civilians? or nuclear bombs on cities? you still think ww1 was a misunderstanding? how about it was started because Germany was building a railroad to Baghdad go get it's hand on the oil, and England and USA didn't want that?
"all but one of them were caused by Muslims, the Armenian Genocide, terrorists gassing women and children in the middle east"
well apparently your sites only tell you want they want you to hear. how about Genocide of Persian people by England and USA during world war one, which cause the death of 9 million people? not mentioned in your sites? or genocide of Iraqi children by sanctioning medicine to them with resulted in the death of more than 500,000 children? how about Stalin's purges? and correct me if I'm mistaken, but after holocaust, around 4,5 million Jewish people remained, and before that there were around 5 million, so the number they mention that 5 million Jewish people died in holocaust, how does that make sense? and was research on this banned because some people thought that it could be found out? and the things that was done by Ottoman empire, has nothing to do with the things that messiah will do. they carried Islam name as ISIS is carrying it right now. yet the rulers did not follow Islam's commands.
:terrorists gassing women and children in the middle east if you mean Saddam Hussein, well i ask you, what were the countries who were supporting him? was it not USA, Italy, Germany, France, ...?
still think that was done by Muslims? watch a couple of documentaries will you? "Loose Change" might be good.
you mean the ones protecting Lebanon and Syria from the attacks of Israel?
:dehumanization of women
are you using Isis or Saudi Arabia as base for this claim? can you give an example from Quran? and are they humanized in west? aren't they being used as tools to satisfy men's desires and sell products? is this the worth of a woman?
:Quran 3:56, 4:76, 4:89, 8:12, and 8:39 says to kill anyone who isn"t Muslims
how many times should it be said for you to understand? Islam means being obedient to god, so true Christianity and Judaism are also Islam. meaning if Jews follow their book, they are considered Muslim and in Christians follow their book, they are considered Muslims.
:: That document doesn"t prove anything, it doesn"t say anything which establishes your point, that"s 2 lies so far.
is Kissinger not Jewish, and did he not create and present that document that is a Genocide plan?
:Source please? Also, the USA never used radioactive ammunition in Iraq
watch this document, it's from one of your own journalists: "Breaking The Silence: Truth And Lies In The War On Terror"
:Sixty year olds aren"t killing 6 year olds, where are you getting this stuff?
i said 6 year olds not sixty, dont change my text pliz. search this: Shooting of Kayla Rolland
:Israel has very low murder rates.
you mean they just like to murder other people? why dont you search this: "Jewish extremists burn Palestinian child to death"
:who told you people aren"t allowed to research the holocaust, and Saudi Arabia is an enemy of the USA, it"s just that Obama is working with them.
you mean people can research and deny it if they found out it's not true? and Saudi Arabia is the biggest Ally of US in the region. don't you know, American oil companies control their fields and have Huge shares in them. watch this: "The-Real-House-of-Saud-Saudi-Arabia's-Oil-For-Tyranny"
:they"re never given a choice
prove it to me, don't just say it and take it as granted. in Iran, the majority of university and college students are women, they have all the right men have except a few that Islam denies, like being a court judge, or Prayer leader.
:US doesn"t veto other nation"s decisions
hasn't Obama said countless times that if countries make a decision against Israel, US will Veto it?
:Last I checked, totalitarian Islamism which is what we have in the Middle East has killed countless people on a daily basis, kidnapped young African Girls to prevent them from getting an education and selling them as sex slaves
you mean you live in middle east? or just say this from what you here in your media? if by totalitarian Islamism you mean what exists in Saudi Arabia, then i say they are supported by US and are allies with Israel. and haven't Israel and Us kill on daily basis? again Gaza strip.
:Lie number 6 Qur"an 33:50 says
in Islam, it is allowed to marry your cousin. and which part of that verse is pedophilia?
:And that"s why God authorized a woman to be a judge in the OT right? Oh wait- and a Queen- Queen Esther- the most respected Monarch in all of the OT is a woman?
again don't change my text. by judge i meant court judge. and queen Esther? wasn't she the Jewish woman who were sent to the palace of Xerxes? and when Xerxes married him, asked Xerxes to allow her to punish those who she desired? and then ordered the massacre of more than 77000 people? and after this, Jews who had a royal supporter now, attacked other cities on Iran and killed more than 500,000 people in their home. the incident was so severe that Iranian people still go out at the 13th of first month to repel the Curse of that day of Genocide. and Jewish people still celebrate this massacre in Purim.
:Why then is wisdom referred to as a woman in Proverbs 4?
what do you mean by that? the sentence was unclear.
:No one has been killing innocent Muslims
man, you must be blind. US killed millions of people in Iraq and Afghanistan. Israel is killing Muslims on daily basis.
and as for these
massacre deir yassin
massacre sabra and shatila
the massacre of khan younis
the massacre of qana
the massacre of jenin
Gaza flotilla raid
i just let people to read fairly and decide for them selves, dont just read wikipedia. and Ariel sharon was not dubbed the Butcher of Sabra an Shatila if he wasn't there and didn't cause it. actually it is you who are lying and are trying to cover facts.
“what kind of misunderstanding allows a country to use napalm bombs on civilians? or nuclear bombs on cities? you still think ww1 was a misunderstanding? how about it was started because Germany was building a railroad to Baghdad go get it's hand on the oil, and England and USA didn't want that?”
WW1 was caused by Serbian Terrorists killing the Austrian Prince Franz Ferdinand, obcourse there were things allowing for the war to happen beforehand, but Germany invading Bagdad wasn’t one of them.
Actually, there were 10.5 million Jews in Europe between 1922-24  but in 1952 there were only 3.5 million , so ~7 million European Jews died in the holocaust. The rulers did not follow Islam’s commandments? I would think that they followed all of Islam’s commands, kill infidels in cold blood (3:151/4:89), murder ‘pagans’ (2:191-193) and abuse women (4:34/2:223)- am I missing anything?
Yeah I know the conspiracy theories, get this one, George Bush was friends with the Bin Laden’s.
Qur’an 4:34, 2:223, 33:50, Muslim no. 2127, oh and another thing, in the west, this isn’t happening, where do you get your news from?
Not true, Sahih Muslim, 41:6985: “The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (the Boxthorn tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews. (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).”
No, Obama is actually Anti-Israel.
The Israelis don’t kill people on a daily basis, stop lying, stop the Anti-Semitism, shut up unless you want to be truthful.
Leviticus 18:6: “No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the Lord.” Also, it says the daughters of your aunts and uncles, i.e. under aged peoples.
That never happened, none of it, please don’t lie about Queen Esther, and the massacre of Purim was when the Persians attacked the Jews and the Jews defend themselves, so Anti-Semites say how terrible they were. Kind of like it is today, Muslims whine about how terrible the Jews are for defending themselves.
You said women aren’t wise, in proverbs 4 wisdom itself is referred to in a female tense, any questions?
Israel isn’t killing Muslims save in defensive warfare, the US killed tons of people in Afghanistan, that is true, but only by accident.