The Instigator
ccstate4peat
Pro (for)
Losing
39 Points
The Contender
mongeese
Con (against)
Winning
45 Points

egg came before the chicken

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/10/2009 Category: Science
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,098 times Debate No: 8577
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (14)

 

ccstate4peat

Pro

I am only challenging my opponent in this round, he can either just accept or post an opening statement.
mongeese

Con

Thank you for starting this debate.

First, some definitions:
Egg - the hard-shelled reproductive body produced by... the common domestic chicken (http://www.merriam-webster.com...[2])
Chicken - the common domestic fowl (Gallus gallus) (http://www.merriam-webster.com...)

Alright, then.

First, a Creationist view:
God created all of the animals as adults. Eggs would probably have died without a hen to care for them. Therefore, the chicken must have come before the egg.

Now, an Evolutionist view:
A Gallus egg produced a Gallus gallus chicken. Therefore, the Gallus gallus chicken came before the Gallus gallus egg.

Unless my opponent can come up with an entirely different view, and back it up, then the chicken came before the egg.
Debate Round No. 1
ccstate4peat

Pro

As you said, the Gallus gallus chicken came from an egg. That's right it came from an egg which existed before the chicken. I am not arguing that the Gallus Gallus egg came before the Gallus Gallus chicken, just that the first egg came before the first chicken, and it did.
mongeese

Con

The definition of egg:
"the hard-shelled reproductive body produced by... the common domestic chicken"

Therefore, a Gallus egg would not fit the definition. Only a Gallus gallus egg.

The Gallus bird lays an egg. That egg is a Gallus egg, and does not meet the definition of "egg" for the resolution.

The Gallus egg hatches into a Gallus gallus bird, also known as a chicken. This chicken fits the definition of "chicken" for the resolution. It later lays an egg, but it came first.

Therefore, the resolution is affirmed.

Plus, my opponent did not even attack the Creationist view argument.

Vote CON.
Debate Round No. 2
ccstate4peat

Pro

I decided to research this last second and came up with this. According to fossil records, the present-day chicken is believed to be a descendent of Archaeopteryx, a creature with sharp teeth and winged claws, found in the Jurassic period and thought to be more than 150 million years old. According to Augusta (1961), Archaeopteryx is "a true bird, occupying the phylogenetically lowest place in the class of birds (Aves) and is the only member of the ancient group of the Archaeornithes (or Saururae); all other birds, whether extinct or extant, belong to the higher group of Neornithes (or Ornithurae)" (p.56). These upper Jurassic birds were not much larger than a pigeon and, like chickens of today, were not good flyers. More recent evidence (Chatterjee, 1997) suggests that the Protoavis Texenis from the late Triassic period may actually predate Archaeopteryx by some 75 million years. The evidence, however, requires a much more complex understanding of comparative anatomy, as this discovery did not reveal a feather structure found with later fossils of the Archaeopteryx. Fossil records also demonstrate another bird identified as Confuciusornis (so named as a result of its discovery in Northern China) is similar to Archaeopteryx but lacks teeth. Experts believe that Confuciusornis may have occupied this same historic period. According to Paul (2002) the evidence that birds evolved from small predatory dinosaurs in Mesozoic times is overwhelming. Paleontologists now agree that birds are the direct descendents of dinosaurs. The many inhabitants of the Jurassic era, including the most commonly identified dinosaurs, were egg layers. Even during the Jurassic period there were chicken-sized, egg-laying predators identified as Compsognathus. The similarities in modes of reproduction between avepod dinosaurs and birds extend to the sharing of a distinctive eggshell microstructure not observed in other amniotes (Paul, 2002). Reproduction by means of external egg laying allows the evolving dinosaurs to produce large numbers of offspring without the additional weight (and associated diminishment of mobility) of an internal gestation process. According to archeological theory, birds evolved from dinosaurs, which, in turn, evolved over millions of years from the primordial goo that produced single-cell organisms. Many forms of birds, including the precursor to the modern chicken, continued to develop through the Cenozoic era and by the Oligocene period, over 35 million years ago, most of the relatives of the birds we know today had appeared. In fact, the dinosaur-to-bird lineage can better be divided according to non-avian dinosaurs and avian dinosaurs. Consistent with evolutionary theory, Dingus and Rowe (1998) have suggested all living birds belong to either the Neognath lineage, which includes the Gallus gallus (chicken) or the Palaeognath. Further, the Neognath lineage split into two distinct lines during the Cretaceous period. One such split includes the anseriforms plus the galliform birds, such as chickens and turkeys. Scientists have identified that domesticated chickens (Gallus domesticus) were descendants of the Red Jungle Fowl (Gallus gallus) and appeared as early as 4,000 BC in Southeast Asia. The domesticated chickens were initially used for entertainment in the form of cock fighting, rather than food. However, by 1400 BC the domestic chicken was popular throughout Asia and Europe and chicken eggs were hatched in mass incubators. In sum, birds of today are ancestors of amphibian life that evolved from an aquatic existence to survive on dry land during the warm period of Perm. These predatory creatures, or Reptilia, were generally diminutive and slim with elongated posterior limbs. Reproduction by means of eggs is found in all such reptiles and the trait continued during the evolutionary period in which reptilia variants became warm-blooded, developed feathers, and began to master flying. In short, they became birds; that is, including those that we later identified as chickens.

http://radicalpedagogy.icaap.org...
mongeese

Con

My opponent gives a rather long speech about the history of birds.

As nice as this is, it is irrelevant.

The definition of "egg" clearly states that it must be produced by the common domestic chicken (Gallus gallus).

Therefore, the chicken MUST come before the egg, because anything produced by any other bird would not qualify as an egg.

An ancestor of the chicken would have produced a similar structure, but it would not qualify as an egg.

The egg produced by the chicken in such a structure would qualify, but it would be too late, because the chicken came before the egg.

The resolution is negated.

Vote CON.
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Angrypants66 7 years ago
Angrypants66
Con won the debate, but I thought of a very good point to throw in... Technically wouldn't the chicken come first in ALL circumstances because as soon as the sperm from the rooster hits inside the hen, and the chicken is thus concieded, and then the egg does come into existance until after the chicken is concieved and the shell (egg) is there to the chicken embro.
Posted by Brock_Meyer 7 years ago
Brock_Meyer
C: Tied.
S&G: Con.
A: Con.
S: Con. Relevant sources only.
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
Due to the first round definition of "egg", CON wins the arguments.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
B/A - CON
Conduct - TIED
S/G - CON
"I am only challenging my opponent in this round[;] he can either just accept or post an opening statement."
C A - The egg produced by the chicken in such a structure would qualify, but it would be too late, because the chicken came before the egg.
Sources - TIED
CON used a dictionary. PRO used a largely irrelevant webpage.
Posted by ccstate4peat 7 years ago
ccstate4peat
I got really lucky and checked this 5 minutes before my argument was due and jammed as much as I could in my final argument. For the record I got it in 20 seconds before it was due.
Posted by tBoonePickens 7 years ago
tBoonePickens
The chicken is a actual chicken; the egg is a potential chicken. Actuality precedes potentiality, hence chicken came before the egg.
Posted by mongoose 7 years ago
mongoose
Notice the "..." in the definition.
Posted by Chase_the_Bass 7 years ago
Chase_the_Bass
Looks like things should have been a bit more defined. I wonder what happens next.
Posted by nickjno1fan 7 years ago
nickjno1fan
Weird debate we have here..haha. I wonder which came first? The rooster or the hen? O.o
Posted by karithesilence 7 years ago
karithesilence
Scientifically the egg is a single celled organism which mutates or "grows" in to a multiple celled organism such as the chicken.
14 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by ccstate4peat 6 years ago
ccstate4peat
ccstate4peatmongeeseTied
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Vote Placed by Danielle 6 years ago
Danielle
ccstate4peatmongeeseTied
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Vote Placed by LaSalle 6 years ago
LaSalle
ccstate4peatmongeeseTied
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Vote Placed by SaintNick 7 years ago
SaintNick
ccstate4peatmongeeseTied
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Vote Placed by Vi_Veri 7 years ago
Vi_Veri
ccstate4peatmongeeseTied
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Vote Placed by Angrypants66 7 years ago
Angrypants66
ccstate4peatmongeeseTied
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Vote Placed by rougeagent21 7 years ago
rougeagent21
ccstate4peatmongeeseTied
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Vote Placed by Alex 7 years ago
Alex
ccstate4peatmongeeseTied
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Vote Placed by KRFournier 7 years ago
KRFournier
ccstate4peatmongeeseTied
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Vote Placed by Brock_Meyer 7 years ago
Brock_Meyer
ccstate4peatmongeeseTied
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