The Instigator
vi_spex
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
TimHawks
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

evil is the good half, as holy is the cause of evil

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/27/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 337 times Debate No: 81618
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (5)
Votes (0)

 

vi_spex

Pro

evil is the good half, as holy is the cause of evil, and will cease to exist once holy does

theist=holy
atheist=evil
TimHawks

Con

Your argument is fundamentally flawed. First of all I will define the two terms that you used. A theist is someone who believes in or espouses some type of religious view. An atheist is some one who rejects all religious views and holds no religious view. If religion ceased to exist then, by definition, all people would be atheists. If all theists in the world were to disappear it would still be remembered that they once existed. By this contrast alone one could reason that all the remaining people in the world are atheists. If your argument had been that if theists had never existed then atheists would also have never existed, this would be an undeniably true statement. To counter the first part of your argument, why do you assume that one side must be wholly good and the other wholly bad? I have found from my own life that there are both those who espouse religious views and those who don't who are both equally willing to commit horrendous crimes against one another. I would also question how it is that you have come to the conclusion that holiness causes evil? Both of these, in truth, are really points of view. What I may view as a holy and justified act, others might view as unjust based upon their personal ideology.
Debate Round No. 1
vi_spex

Pro

atheism is disbelief, there is no one to disbelieve without there being a theist to claim "it" in the first place

theism causes atheism
TimHawks

Con

Atheism is, according to Merriam Webster, "a disbelief in the existence of a deity". As I have said, you could only be correct if there had never been any theists. The fact that there are now, and if they did not continue to exist, there would have been theists at one time, this provides the contrast needed to define the remaining people as atheists. Your argument is completely illogical. This would be akin to someone telling me that I cannot hate Nazism, because Nazism does not exist anymore. The fact that the old ideological belief of Nazism is not around anymore is irrelevant. I can read about and know about Nazism, because it once existed, ergo I can hate it for what I know it to have once been. I suppose you could argue that if all religion ceased to exist, and somehow everyone in the world forgot that their ever was religion, then at that point I suppose you could make the argument that the people still around would not know that they are atheists as there would no longer be the contrast to draw the contradistinction. If we accept, though, that the world is not likely to simply forget several thousand years which includes reference to religions having once existed, the contradistinction exists to allow people to realize and define themselves as atheists. As I said in the first post, the only logical way that you could have presented this argument was to say that if theists had never existed, atheists would also have never existed.
Debate Round No. 2
vi_spex

Pro

christians are atheists to islam, and unicorn heaven

the default is non belief, atheism is disbelief
TimHawks

Con

You aren't making a great deal of sense, yet I will try to decipher this rambling. I believe what you are trying to say is that Muslims would consider Christians to be atheists, and that atheism is defined as rejecting religion rather than simply having no belief. If this is what you mean, then half of this I agree with. Atheism is indeed defined as the disbelieve in a deity whereas someone who did not believe in a deity, because there never was a consideration among man that a deity might exist, would not necessarily be an atheist. This said, I would point out that this is basically the argument that I already made. If religion had never existed, then neither would atheism exist. We have, however, moved beyond that point as religions did come into existence and still exist today. Because religions have existed and will be remember to have existed, atheism will always exist as the counterpoint to religion even if religion ceases to exist. To address your other argument that Christians are atheists to Muslims, this is out right false. Atheism is defined as not believing in any deity. Therefore, since Christians believe in a God which is actually the same God that Muslims believe in, your statement is utterly false. These two groups may have differences in what they believe about their shared God, but they do indeed worship the same God. To boil down your argument to its most basic level, your argument seems to be that if A exists because of B, then without B, A would not exist. This is a fundamentally flawed argument. It is more like A exists as a counterpoint to B, ergo even if no one still agrees with A, B will still exist as the counterpoint to A. To put this in simplest terms, if atheism is the rejection of the idea that there is a deity, as long as people know that once there existed a belief in a deity, atheism will still exist because theism will still be an idea even if no one believes in it anymore. Unless massive pieces of history are lost, ideas do not disappear even if we have come to reject them. This means that if one idea posits one point and another idea is posited as its counterpoint, since ideas do not disappear, the counterpoint still exists even if the original point is considered invalid. This all basically comes down to one main point, and that is that you cannot unmake an idea. If an idea once existed, it still exists now even if no one believes it to be a valid idea.
Debate Round No. 3
vi_spex

Pro

religion is non sense

no.. i am saying, christians are atheists to islam, they disbelieve unicorn heaven by accepting the bible
TimHawks

Con

Your first point is absolutely meaningless to this debate. The topic of this debate was never whether or not I believe in religion nor was it about whether or not I find their ideas to be meaningful. It was merely about whether or not atheists will still exist if theist cease to exist, which I have stated my case on and you have offered absolutely no argument to refute this. I do not know where you are obtaining this reference to unicorn heaven. I'm not sure what that is, but it is irrelevant in any case. The correct statement would be to say that Muslims consider, technically based on their religious beliefs, that Christians are heretics, because they believe in the bible. An atheist is defined as someone who rejects all belief in a deity, ergo neither Christians nor Muslims could be considered as atheist by anyone as they fail to meet the criterion that defines an atheist. Your arguments are literally completely without merit.
Debate Round No. 4
vi_spex

Pro

religion is doubt

atheism is belief in god unless atheism is based on truth negated by a believer
TimHawks

Con

Absolutely nothing you just said is true by any definition of any word that you used. Religion is based upon beliefs not doubts. There are no religious doctrines whose tenants include something to the effect of "thou shalt not believe this or thou shalt not consider that." They are all based on "this is what you should believe, and this is how you should act." That would be a belief based argument not a doubt based one. Your second statement makes no sense whatsoever. Atheism is literally the disbelief in a deity, by definition, so where you could possibly get the idea that atheists ever believe in a god, "atheism is belief in god", baffles me to no end. The last part of your second sentence doesn't mean anything. There is nothing in any argument that you have made in this debate that even approaches making any type of legitimate point about anything.
Debate Round No. 5
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
you should have no doubt about that, just believe
Posted by TimHawks 1 year ago
TimHawks
Were you dropped on the head as a child?
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
belief is doubt
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
evil only exist to end holy
Posted by KingofEverything 1 year ago
KingofEverything
If evil=good they can't be evil.
No votes have been placed for this debate.