The Instigator
Man-is-good
Con (against)
Losing
21 Points
The Contender
RoyLatham
Pro (for)
Winning
30 Points

fairy vs demon

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/13/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,780 times Debate No: 16500
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (10)

 

Man-is-good

Con

Two worlds exist: the otherworld and the mundane world. Common mythologies tell us that, in addition to many gods who assume powers over nature, there are the demons and especially the little inhabits of the otherworld, fairies.

I personally feel much more for the fairy. The fairy, who appears in tales and fables, has a much more subtle and powerful magic to them, ascribed through the use of symbolism, the images of rafts and waters--and so on: I digress.

Contention one: Fairies have numerous origins, many of which are a status above that of demons
A common belief of fairies is that they are a class of demoted angels who were too impure to remain in heaven, after our Father closed his gates to the fallen beings, but too pure for hell. In this case, fairies are subject to the Devil (who is excluded from this argument). It is common to say, ever since the stories of his fall, that with the devil fell one-third of the host of heaven. From this, I will make the following mini-arguments:
1. The hierarchy of angels is: seraphs, the messegers and pronouncers of god's
glory, cherubs, thrones, dominions, archangels, and so on. Judging solely from
the characterization of the devil in medieval and Renaissance works as a
tricksters, a proud being, and a worker of macchintions and lies, I argue that
the fairies, who, according to this belief, retained their purity, are more higher
in the angel hierarchy...The virtues and the heavenly governors, and especially
the seraphs and so forth, who are close to the glory of God, are supposed less
vulnerable to temptations and lies than their servants.
Another belief is that fairies were pagan deities (in Celtic tradition) who subsided to the authority of the Lord after their reign. For an instance, let us define what a god, the synonym of deity, is: (dictionary.com) "one of several deities...presiding over some portion of worldly affairs." A demon is merely "an evil spirit" who works harm but whose powers are limited. (arguments may rest on whether or not the pagan deities, of classical mythology--for example, are more or less powerful than the demon or servant of the devil). The word "deity" itself is associated with a sense of ethereal, heavenly power that is far superior to that of the demon or devil...

Contention 2: The fairy's weaknesses are few compared to that of the demon.
Fairies are vulnerable mainly to iron, which, according to common mythology, is like poison to them. However, they are not fearful of the church's bells, or the cross, holy items, or the presence of the priest as demons are.

Contention 3: Good triumphs over evil.
The basic stories have been that the forces of light, wise, careful, and powerful, have triumphed from now and then against the forces of darkness. Several examples include:
1. the triumph of Zeus, arguable the force of light--due to his connections with
heaven, justice, order, and thunder, against Typhos, the child of Gaea and the
storm giant after the Titans
2. the overthrow of Lucifer, the epitome of rebellion and chaos, by the hand of
God
3. the classic story of Faust (Goethe)
4. numerous fairy tales in which the trapped prince, by a witch or evil spirit, or
princess is freed and the villain defeated
and so on. I do not think that fairies, who are connected with innocence and beauty, along with mischevious behavior, and childhood, are not exempt from this. Nor are the demons who, among others, encourage sorcery and witchcraft, sin (sloth, greed, and so on), violence, and are known for their animalistic bodies exempt from this either. Therefore, the fairies, the force of good, would triumph over the penultimate forces of darkness.

(In addition, here are the requirements and details of the debate:
--remember, this is a purely strict debate. Classical mythology, and other religious mythologies, may be used to back up one's claims. In the end, the ultimate goal is to provide enough evidence whether or not older mythologies (not that of shows or comics--please) demonstrate which of the two, the fairy or demon, is more powerful and superior.
--This is not a debate of epic proportions. We won't be discussing stem cells, have arguments over the Messiah, the trinity, or any other religious controversy. It is just, in my opinion, a frivolous debate.)

I hope that we will have more time, in the next four rounds, to argue about our cases and provide more information than in the opening round.

(Source: "Fairy" www. wikipidea.com.)
For any comments on my sources, RoyLatham, please write them in your argument.
RoyLatham

Pro

Thanks to Pro for a worthy and timely topic, a sharp contrast to the many worthless debates cluttering up DDO these days.

Of all the metaphysically challenged beings, demons are pre-eminent. Think about it. Suppose there is a nasty job to do, like taking out bin Laden. Are you really going to send Tinkerbell? No, you would send a pack of snarling demons The US government has not acknowledged the role of demons in the bin Laden affair, but they are just worried about the "Great Satan" publicity angle. We all know what the truth is, and that the Navy SEALS think is an obvious cover. None of SEALs who allegedly participated as been identified or interviewed, clear evidence of a cover up. The truth of demon involvement proves that demons are more powerful than fairies, and contrary to the traditional slander against them, they are fully capable of doing good.

The powers of fairies are extremely limited. We can rely upon the research of noted author J,M. Barrie to accurately reflect the characteristics of fairies. Wikipedia, an unimpeachable source, summarizes:

Tinker Bell was described by Barrie as a fairy who mended pots and kettles, like an actual tinker. Her dialogue consists of the sounds of a tinkling bell, which is understandable only to those familiar with the language of the fairies. ... Though sometimes ill-tempered, spoiled, and very jealous and vindictive (getting the Lost Boys to shoot arrows at Wendy), at other times she is helpful and kind to Peter. The extremes in her personality are explained in-story by the fact that a fairy's size prevents her from holding more than one feeling at a time, so when she is angry she has no counterbalancing compassion. Fairies cannot fly in the rain but can enable others to fly by sprinkling them with fairy dust ... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org...

Fairies cannot fly in the rain! If it came down to it, one would be better off going with Navy SEALs, who can fly in the rain.

1. Pro contends that fairies are in the hierarchy of angels, but offers no proof. The always-reliable Wikipedia provides the straight scoop:

"[Fairies] origins are less clear ... being variously dead, or some form of demon, or a species completely independent of humans or angels. Folklorists have suggested that their actual origin lies in a conquered race living in hiding, or in religious beliefs that lost currency with the advent of Christianity. These explanations are not necessarily incompatible, and they may be traceable to multiple sources." [2] http://en.wikipedia.org...

Note the confirmation by multiple sources. Fairies my in fact be demons, in which case Pro's case that fairies are more more powerful than demons is directly negated. No being can be more powerful than itself. Otherwise, fairies have troublesome but limited powers.

Fairies, as part of an unwarranted publicity campaign, are generally portray as miniature cute girls with wings. None have ever consented to interviews on a major Sunday news program like Meet the Press, so we don't know for sure what they look like. It is blatant racism to suppose that if they look more appealing than demons, that they are better than demons. This is the well-known Chipmunk Fallacy, in which cute rodents are supposed to be less harmful than rodents not thought cute.

"a demon ... is a supernatural being described as something that is not human and in ordinary usage malevolent. The original neutral Greek word "daimon" does not carry the negative connotation initially understood by implementation of the Koine and New Testament " [4] http://en.wikipedia.org... While is ordinary usage they cannot e controlled, in fact that can be overcome by careful usage. "a demon is a spiritual entity that may be conjured and controlled." [4] I grant that there are evil demons, which is why they should only be controlled by trained professionals, like the CIA. Evil demons should not be blamed in any case as they are just the product of poor parenting.

2. "Much of the folklore about fairies revolves around protection from their malice, by such means as cold iron ... and they will not go near it) or charms of rowan and herbs, or avoiding offense by shunning locations known to be theirs. In particular, folklore describes how to prevent the fairies from stealing babies and substituting changelings, and abducting older people as well." [2]

They aversion to rowan is a significant weakness, because rowan or mountain ash is common in the temperate zones of the Northern Hemisphere. It is common in Europe and North America. [3] http://en.wikipedia.org...

The inhabit woodlands [2], which precludes operation in urban environments. Since they never go back to where they were identified as having been, they are doomed to an ever-shrinking domain. That's not powerful.

While demons are generally trashed in the literature, it takes considerable research to uncover their specific powers. However, the specifics have been documented, such as "Seated on his golden throne, blazing like flame, Ravana resembled a great fire kindled on an altar kept alive by sacrificial offerings. Unconquered by gods, gandharvas, rishis or other creatures, that warrior, who resembled death itself with wide-open jaws, bore on his person the wounds inflicted by the thunderbolts in the war between gods and titans" [5] http://www.unification.net... Compare that to Tinkerbell.

More specifics are obtained from another unimpeachable source, Yahoo Answers. Demons are capable of "Soul stealing ..., Coercion and Subversion. Planting demon seed in virgins ..., Killing for the pure joy of it, Impervious to fire, Shooting fire or commanding it, Sensing people who want to do bad, [and] Just plain too tough to kill with one smack." [6] http://answers.yahoo.com... According to this source they are afraid of ice and various religious things. Big deal.

3. Pro claims that good triumphs over evil. I have established that it is highly controversial as to whether fairies are reliably good and whether all demons are evil. Each fairy and demo should be judged solely on their individual merit, without any racist blanket condemnations. However, even if we were to grant that fairies are good and demons are evil and that good ultimately triumphs, it does not follow that fairies are more powerful than demons. It would at most establish the more powerful good friends of fairies are more powerful than demons. Pro has granted that fairies are inferior to the highest Deity, and are merely somewhere in the upper part of the hierarchy. It may be that if good ultimately triumphs, it would be the consequence of the superior beings, not of the fairies. We know that fairies have very limited powers at best, so it must be the case that if good is to triumph, a Greater Being must be above the Monty Python foot. [7] http://honorsartsyoutings.blogspot.com...

This debate is not about the overarching good of goodness. It is solely about fairies vs. demons. I grant that fairies are most often shown as cute, but I say that we must look past that to the objective facts of the matter. Fairies do not have the kind of lead in the pencil that demons have.

(In setting up the debate, Pro says that "this is purely strict debate" yet it is just "a frivolous debate." "Strict implies high standards of evidence, not really possible with this subject. That's a bit of a contradiction with "frivolous." I'll let readers resolve that conflict.)

Debate Round No. 1
Man-is-good

Con

Thank you for finally taking up this debate.

1. Wikipedia, however, also offers us that fairies were:
"Demoted angels A third belief held that they were a class of "demoted" angels. One popular story held that when the angels revolted, God ordered the gates shut; those still in heaven remained angels, those in hell became devils, and those caught in between became fairies.Others held that they had been thrown out of heaven, not being good enough, but they were not evil enough for hell.This may explain the tradition that they had to pay a "teind" or tithe to Hell. As fallen angels, though not quite devils, they could be seen as subject of the Devil."
(This implies that fairies are not as impure as demons, but still to impure to remain in heaven. Note: the resolution is fairy vs DEMON, who, as an evil angel and member of the devil's party, is not the same as the devil, or the trickster, himself. Nevertheless, that is why fairies might be more powerful than demons since as a demoted class of angels who neither fear the church bells (" Disassociating himself from such evils may be why Oberon, in A Midsummer Night's Dream, carefully observed that neither he nor his court feared the church bells"--Wikipedia again) and possibly neither the cross, or holy symbols as much as demons.
William Shakespeare depicts Oberon, the king of the fairies, and Titania as having immense powers who while debating with each other over the Indian boy she has taken. Titania mentions how:
"Therefore the winds, piping to us in vain,
As in revenge, have suck'd up from the sea Effect on wind and air
Contagious fogs; which falling in the land
Have every pelting river made so proud
That they have overborne their continents:
The ox hath therefore stretch'd his yoke in vain,
The ploughman lost his sweat, and the green corn
Hath rotted ere his youth attain'd a beard; Power over agriculture and land
The fold stands empty in the drowned field,
And crows are fatted with the murrion flock;
The nine men's morris is fill'd up with mud,
And the quaint mazes in the wanton green
For lack of tread are undistinguishable:
The human mortals want their winter here;
No night is now with hymn or carol blest:
Therefore the moon, the governess of floods,
Pale in her anger, washes all the air, (Power over water and tides and floods?)
That rheumatic diseases do abound: (power over diseases?)
And thorough this distemperature we see
The seasons alter: hoary-headed frosts
Far in the fresh lap of the crimson rose,
And on old Hiems' thin and icy crown
An odorous chaplet of sweet summer buds
Is, as in mockery, set: the spring, the summer,
The childing autumn, angry winter, change
Their wonted liveries, and the mazed world,
By their increase, now knows not which is which:
And this same progeny of evils comes
From our debate, from our dissension;
We are their parents and original.
(Act 2, Scene 1)"
It is clear that fairies aren't the little girls who "mended pots and kettles" or had a dialogue "the sounds of a tinking bell". Nor are the demons truly that powerful either. Wikipedia also states that fairies may also be:
"Another theory is that the fairies were originally worshiped as gods, but with the coming of Christianity, they lived on, in a dwindled state of power, in folk belief. In this particular time, fairies were reputed by the church as being 'evil' beings. Many beings who are described as deities in older tales are described as "fairies" in more recent writings. Victorian explanations of mythology, which accounted for all gods as metaphors for natural events that had come to be taken literally, explained them as metaphors for the night sky and stars.According to this theory, fairies are personified aspects of nature and deified abstract concepts such as love and ‘victory’ in the pantheon of the particular form of animistic nature worship reconstructed as the religion of Ancient Western Europe." (Wikipedia, the "unimpeachable source).
Dictionary.com states that a "god" is: a supreme being according to some particular conception and who presides over human affairs. A demon, drawing again from the same unimpeachable source, Wikipedia, it is said that:
"Demons are believed to have the power to physically or mentally hurt people, but only within the boundaries of what God will allow. Demons can destroy any material on the earth; these supernatural powers are always inferior to the power of God. God may use His will to cancel or destroy any effect the demon chooses to invoke. According to the gospels, Jesus also had full power over demons, and they always obeyed his commands when he told them what to do, as opposed to a more general sense in which demons only do that which God tells them to. Demons, assumably, are granted permission to test, bring about trials, and to tempt people through the use of their destructive powers, to make people prove their faith, sometimes as a means to carry out the will of the Lord."
There are many implications that one can make from this quote from Wikipedia. First is that a demon is not supreme, but flawed, especially in its boundary to inflict harm on the grounds of the Lord. (This limits all of their abilities, including the ones that you quoted about: planting seeds in virgins, witchcraft, invulnerability to fire, commanding or shooting fre, coercion, soul stealing, in what the Lord permits as a part of the Grand Design. I do not see how the Lord would permit, if we accept this, the demon to harm fairies, who are either demoted angels or even pagan gods that have submitted to his own rule.
The power difference between the pagan god and the demon is somewhat firmly established. I call the myth of Lamia, regarded as the equivalent to Lilith, the bird woman (?) of Gilgamesh, who was cursed by Hera, the goddess of the heavens and the wife of Zeus, to kill her own children, while given by Zeus the ability to remove her own eyes in and out. (Wikipedia, "Lamia"). If we were to accept classical mythology (which was why I called the debate "strict",, meaning that it pertained to only certain parts of mythology and interpreation), then it seems that the pagan gods are more powerful than the demons. (And, the examples of the power of the pagan gods include control over natural world (sun, moon, nature, river, and so on--all a part of animism) and so on. So it seems that fairies weren't always so goody goody or weak, CON.

By the way, I will give a contradiction of my own that I will let the voters resolve. In the opening argument, I asked Con to adhere to the fact that "remember, this is a purely strict debate. Classical mythology, and other religious mythologies, may be used to back up one's claims. In the end, the ultimate goal is to provide enough evidence whether or not older mythologies (not that of shows or comics--please) demonstrate which of the two, the fairy or demon, is more powerful and superior." CON disobeyed this by introducing the image of Tinker Bell and modern interpretations of fairies as "miniature cute girls with wings", both of which are not found in "classical" (from ancient to Renaissance times) mythology [Tinkerbell is from the 1911 novel Peter Pan.] I hope CON uses more traditional sources later on in the debate.
I look forward for CON's argument and rebuttal.
[Fairies' vulnerbility to rowan is not necessarily hindersome. There are several churches and monasteries in North America (which:
  • Mexico: 95%
  • United States: 79%
  • Canada: 77%) And it is a common feature for holy symbols and possibly even the Scriptures in the homes of the pious. So maybe being afraid of holy objects isn't such a "big deal" after all.]
RoyLatham

Pro

Classic v. Cartoon Fairies
Shakespeare's account of the mythology of fairies (c. 1600) was written before the mythology was well-developed. The Wikipedia article we both referenced suggest the mythology matured in the Victorian era, the 1800s. I referenced J,M. Barrie, who wrote his account of Tinkerbell in 1911, just after the maturity of the fairy mythology. I did not reference the Disney cartoons of the modern era. The Disney depiction is far more benign than that of Barrie, who portrayed Tinker Bell as jealous and vindictive. The cuteness of fairies derives from the Victorian era, as shown in the Wikipedia article as well. Disney picked that up and embellished it, while dropping the vindictiveness.

I agree that the Disney portrayal is not the subject of the debate. However, (a) it's reasonable for me to argue against the image of cuteness that might affect the sentiments of voters of the debate and (b) the properties of fairies as described in the 1700's ad 1800's are "classical" within a reasonable interpretation of the rules of debate. Pro didn't define "classical" as "not after the Renaissance" but rather as "not as in cartoons." There is no standard default meaning of "classical" applicable to this debate. Compare, for example, to chess wherein the "hyper-modern" openings to the 1880's -- what is classical and what is modern all depends. For our debate, it would be unreasonable to exclude the heyday of fairy mythology from a debate on the properties of fairies.

As further evidence of the relatively modernity of fairy mythology, consider [8] http://www.amazon.com... Edwin Sidney Hartland, The Science of Fairy Tales: An Inquiry into Fairy Mythology (p. 63). Public Domain Books. Kindle Edition. The book was published in 1890 (available as a free Kindle download) and dealt with the author's efforts at tracking down tales of the supernatural still fresh in that era. For example, he writes of the tale of a salve that "And this is evidently to be understood in all cases. Accordingly, we find the invariable result is that the favoured mortal beholds swarms of fairies who were invisible before. But their dwellings, their clothing, and their surroundings in general suffer a transformation by no means always the same." The 1800's were still prime time for fairies.

Seelie and Unseelie Fairies
Let's suppose that Shakespeare's description that Pro cite. The passage describes the power of fairies to cause crop failures and plagues. Pro argues that fairies cannot be defeated because they rank high in the hierarchy of angels, are on the side of good, and that therefore they will come under the protection of an almighty God. We cannot say what class of beings comes under God's protection, as, for example, innocent children are not despite apparently being good. Pro's claim that fairies re good, however, is clearly false. Good beings do not cause famines and plagues. Pro offers no independent evidence that God intervenes on the side of fairies, therefore we conclude they are on their own.

Pro cites the characteristics of fairies as angels and demons as subject to the limitations of an Almighty, but those are only the constructs of a narrow segment of Christian concept. The Mythical Creatures Guide Wiki [9] http://www.mythicalcreaturesguide.com... recounts seven attributed origins of fairies; dead (i.e. ghosts), elementals, demoted angels, demons, human, babies laughs (in a novel by J.M. Barrie), and pagan deities. Pro seems to favor the demoted angels origin:

"... when the Angels revolted God shut the gates of heaven, those in Heaven remained Angels, those in Hell became Devils and those stuck in between became Fairies. Other believed that they had been thrown out of Heaven for misbehaving but they were not evil enough to go to Hell and that is how they became trapped. Though they were not Devils, they were not Angels either and so can be seen as subjects of the Devil."

Regardless of origins, [9] puts fairies into two categories:

"The Seelie Court
In Scottish folklore, the Seelie (meaning 'blessed' or 'holy') Court is the community of helpful and beneficent Fairies. Often seen at twilight in long, solemn processions, these Fairies are willing to seek help from humans and to return human kindness with gifts and favours. For instance, they often leave gifts of corn and bread for poor country folk who honour them. They enjoy feasting, hunting and dancing.

The Unseelie Court
This particular classification of Fairies is malicious towards humankind. At night, they may appear in a group or 'horde' to harass travellers by taking them up into the air, pinching them, tangling their hair into knots or leading them astray. These creatures are also believed to be responsible for sickness and death among domestic animals. They prefer to live in the wilderness and in places associated with bloodshed, such as burial grounds and ancient battlefields."

The Seelie Court ones are of the Tinker Bell variety, although not so jealous and vindictive, but rely weak and of no match for demons. The Unseelie Court variety seems to encompass the Shakespearean model, acting evil through plague. Neither kind would be subject to divine protection. Still, the ravages of Unseelie or Shakespearean fairies are limited to not as powerful as that of demons, "Seated on his golden throne, blazing like flame, ... a great fire kindled on an altar kept alive by sacrificial offerings. Unconquered by gods, gandharvas, rishis or other creatures..." [5] The Wiki [9] goes beyond the European Christian concepts to describe dozens of kinds from cultures around the world. None rise much above the power to kill a single person.

The Wiki [9] shows a painting of a cute fairy, consistent with J.M. Barrie vision from the 19th century, under the page heading.

Demons
The Mythical Creatures Wiki also covers demons [10] http://www.mythicalcreaturesguide.com... It define three types:

"Hell Demons: The "Actual" demons, as in the ones that are born from all the Hate and all evil in Hell, along with the Dark Fallen Angels, and so on.

Dimensional Demons: Beings that Inhabit different dimensions or planes of existence. They could have dark intentions, or be born out of spite, vile, and evil. But they are not necessarily, they could be born out of something physical, or even other feelings. Usually have an epheral existence, or a not very solid composition in our plane of reality and the physical.

Earth's Demons: Beings that inhabit the Earth, that, theoretically speaking, are not Really demons, like for example ghosts (actually, Ghosts can fit in both categories, Earth and Dimensional), Dragons (Dragons, can actually fit in whole load of Categories, from heavenly, to earthly, to dimensional, etc.), minotaours, Sphinxes, and Monsters in general that usually have a tangible existence in the physical realm."

As noted, not all demons are evil. The worst and most powerful are the hell demons and [10] lists and describes about 250 kinds. For example, and evil one is Beelzebub is "In later Christian and Biblical sources he appears as a demon and the name of one of the seven princes of Hell." [11] http://en.wikipedia.org... A non-Christian demon example is Pazuzu [12] http://en.wikipedia.org... from Assyrian and Babylonian mythology:

"Pazuzu is the demon of the southwest wind known for bringing famine during dry seasons, and locusts during rainy seasons. .... Although Pazuzu is, himself, an evil spirit, he drives away other evil spirits, thus protecting humans against plagues and misfortunes."

Pazuzu could defeat the misfortunes bought by the evil fairy of Shakespeare, though he would bring his own misfortunes instead. Our debate is only about which is more powerful.
















Debate Round No. 2
Man-is-good

Con

Man-is-good forfeited this round.
RoyLatham

Pro

Con may have been snatched by demons. It happens. We await his return.
Debate Round No. 3
Man-is-good

Con

Man-is-good forfeited this round.
RoyLatham

Pro

Evidence is mounting that my opponent has been snatched by demons. Arguments continued.
Debate Round No. 4
Man-is-good

Con

Man-is-good forfeited this round.
RoyLatham

Pro

Demons win.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Kinesis 6 years ago
Kinesis
'Demons win'

I LOL'd.

Great, subtly hilarious debate.
Posted by RoyLatham 6 years ago
RoyLatham
I'm tempted to take this debate, but I'll think about for another day or two. I will be a fun topic for someone.
10 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 3 years ago
9spaceking
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Vote Placed by quarterexchange 6 years ago
quarterexchange
Man-is-goodRoyLathamTied
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