The Instigator
frank_gore_is_da_best
Con (against)
Losing
49 Points
The Contender
TheLibertarian
Pro (for)
Winning
78 Points

flag burning

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/11/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 8,643 times Debate No: 241
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (18)
Votes (41)

 

frank_gore_is_da_best

Con

Flag burning needs to be illegal. Burning the flag is simply unpatriotic. A loyal american would protect the flag, not destroy it. The flag is the national symbol of our country.
TheLibertarian

Pro

I quote Patrick Henry (A man I am sure who isn't "simply unpatriotic") when he says "I'd rather see someone wrapped in the constitution burning the flag, than someone wrapped in the flag burning the constitution."

Our freedom of speech, along with many others guaranteed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, is an inalienable and natural rights. This freedom allows us, as American citizens and human beings, to be against the leadership of our nation and the course it is going, which a vast amount of Americans agree with. You say a "loyal american" would protect our flag, not destroy it, but than would you call someone who feels, as I do, that George W. Bush was probably one of the most awful men to grace the Oval Office a disloyal american? Would you call someone who felt that Ronald Reagan, the darling of the Neocons, implemented some of the most awful domestic and foreign policies to date, a traitor? I feel that people who do this are mostly in fact the opposite, and that much more loyal to our great nation, as instead of blindly following the leadership, they wish to see our nation become better, and be that much greater in the eyes of other nations and her own citizens. Now, to bring this back to flag burning. Yes, I feel that the flag is a representation of our nation, and is a very patriotic symbol. However, I much more strongly believe in the Constitution, and how our forefathers fought long and hard for our rights, and to have flag burning be illegal would be, to quote Sylvester the Cat, "despicable".
P.S. Next time, you may want to PRO "flag burning" if you are arguing for it.
P.P.S. While Frank Gore is very talented, I feel that Walter Payton is "de best"
Debate Round No. 1
frank_gore_is_da_best

Con

i said pro for burning the flag. that would mean i was for it. next, if you disagree with the nation, that is your opinion. however, you should not burn our nations symbol. the right to free speech is garunteed by the constitution. however, burning a flag has nothing to do with speech. like i said, freedom of speech would be disagreeing with our nation and our current and past presidents. i agree with you that the frameres worked long and hard on the constitution, and it should be strongly believed in. i still believe that does not give people the right to burn the american flag.
TheLibertarian

Pro

So, in essence, you're agreeing with me on most things, but just feel that burning the flag is not technically "speech", and is therefore not protected by the Constitution. However, I feel that is one of the things that the forefathers meant to protect. A problem commonly occurring in the colonies and in Mother England was the issue of treason. When people would say negative things against the leaders, they would be banished, best case scenario. Most were publicly humiliated, and the hung. The forefathers wanted to prevent this at all costs, and with the exception of maybe the Alien and Sedition Acts and the Patriot Act (which should be abolished, but is a different debate entirely), have succeeded. And while burning the flag is not technically "speech", I feel you are taking this out of context, and that the framers of the Constitution just wanted people to be able to say whatever they wished, as long as it didn't infringe on others lives and liberties. I feel that flag burning does entail speech in this case, as frustrated citizens are saying what they believe against the government in the form of burning a flag, solely a "symbol" as you put it. In addition, I feel that our citizens can do whatever they wish, as long as it doesn't infringe on ther's "lives, liberties, and pursuits of happiness." However, I recognize this may be a adical and libertarian argument, so I can stick with my previous one, which pretty much says that flag burning is a form of speech, and is therefore protected under the Constitution.
Debate Round No. 2
frank_gore_is_da_best

Con

Yet again, I agree people should be able to say whatever they want. I just don't believe the freedom of speech includes burning the flag. The burning of a flag does not entail speech. If you disagree with the government or the U.S. I believe you should feel free to say it. Just don't take it out on the U.S. flag itself. The framers wanted the people to be able to say whatever they wished, and that is a great thing that is still in tact today. I personally believe it is unpatriotic to burn the U.S. flag.
TheLibertarian

Pro

Ok, so this debate has become centered around whether or not flag burning is "speech" or not, which would have it protected or not by the 1st Amendment. You feel that it isn't technically speech, so it can;t be free speech and be protected under the Bill of Rights. However, I feel that it is an opinion that is shown through peaceful measure, which does, in fact entail speech by our laws, regardless of how it is expressed. In addition, I feel that if legislative measures would be taken against flag burning, it would just snowball into more and more laws harming our personal rights, more governmental control, and more violations of our inalienable rights. So, in conclusion, I feel that flag burning should be perfectly legal, regardless of how inflammatory it may be, as long as it does not infringe on others rights.

Congratulations. That was fun, and you had some really good arguments. I wish I was as politically active as you are when I was 13.
Debate Round No. 3
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Jokerdude 9 years ago
Jokerdude
I think flag burnings ok as long as the person doing so wraps themselves in it
Posted by MarineCorpsConservative 9 years ago
MarineCorpsConservative
Ok. bigphatfun i did say some things that were a little rash but i just don't like to see the supporting of burning the flag that your father and myself fought and had our buddies die for. I thank your father for serving.
Posted by nebosleeper 9 years ago
nebosleeper
I do say the libertarian is true to his core beliefs. If we were to start making laws against burning the flag, that is one step closer to losing our freedom of speech. Also wether we want to admit that or not, by passing that law would mean more government control, so I believe that the libertarian is on the money.
Posted by artC 9 years ago
artC
The number one worst argument anyone can make for this country against people who criticise is, "If you don't like it, leave".
Posted by Bigphatfun 9 years ago
Bigphatfun
MarineCorpsConservative I thank you for you service i really do.You and everyone else must remember that this Great country was founded by Flag burners and Traitors,George Washington was a traitor and i love him for it he is one of the greatest men in history so you don't have to test my patriotism.

The term freedom of expression is preferred, since the right is not confined to verbal speech but is understood to protect any act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas.Thats the way the government sees the right so if you have a problem with it contact you Congress man and let him know.

your rant about pack your stuff and get out my friend we can't kick everyone out of this country because they don't agree with us UNLESS they HARM Americans which no American can stand for.

The symbol of America is the belief and the love in the hearts of Americans,not a peice of cloth.Its what us Americans stand for what we feel what we believe what we want to do for our fellow Americans.

Yes i haven't served Our country and i have have my reasons.
But it never was or is because i don't love this country.My father fought for this country in WWII and i love him for it and i also once again THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE.

So in closing this country and our constitution sees the first amendment as a freedom of speech and EXPRESSION.
Burning the flag is a freedom of EXPRESSION.and You can't just kick everyone one out of this country.Thats is one of the reason why this counrty is great.because we can do these things. Good day Sir
Posted by MarineCorpsConservative 9 years ago
MarineCorpsConservative
BigPhatFun. Go over to Iraq for a month and tell me how much you love the United States after that. Burning the flag is disgracing this country and disgracing this country means you are a traitor. Pack your stuff and get the hell out if you don't like it. Many men and women have fought and died to protect our nations flag and i would spit in the face of anyone who disgraced this countries flag.
Posted by Bigphatfun 9 years ago
Bigphatfun
Nothing is wrong with flag burning,it is a form of speech.
I believe if you want to ban burning the flag and "DEEM" it
treasonous i think flying the confederate flag and showing it should be also TREASONOUS
Posted by republican00 9 years ago
republican00
Flag burning is down-right wrong. The 1st amendment gives you the right to peacefully protest. I hardly consider starting a fire in order to protest peaceful.

Furthermore, if you are that displeased with the way our country is, just leave. No one is forcing you to be here, dont be burning flags. That is damn near treasonous.
Posted by nickymisseshowarddean 9 years ago
nickymisseshowarddean
dsmooth-

I understand with what you're saying. I wasn't clear in my statement. My statement was obviously biased and I was making reference that as far bent as freedom of speech is , someone necessary should step up and make an exception of flag burning in isolation.
Posted by clsmooth 9 years ago
clsmooth
Let us assume that flag burning is indeed, "unpatriotic." So what? If patriotism is the law, then no one can truly be patriotic. All laws are premised on violence. If you break the law, then ultimately, the government's guns come out. Just try not paying your taxes. So what Frank Gore is saying here is you MUST be patriotic or the government should initiate violence against you. Thus, everyone is forced to be "patriotic," and when everyone is forced to be "patriotic," no one can truly be patriotic of their own free will.

Gore also shows his public-school education by insinuating that patriotism and nationalism are the same thing. A true patriot adheres to the ideals of his country, not its symbols. And a true American patriot considers his state to be his country, first and foremost, not the national government.

As for nickymisseshowarddean -- You are 100% wrong. The First Amendment is not equivocal. "Congress shall make no law..." PERIOD. There are no exceptions. Laws against defamation of character are legislated at the STATE level, not by the federal government (the Congress). The First Amendment clearly does not apply to state or local government, although most states have laws that largely protect free state within their borders. The Founders never intended the national government to be legislating even 1% of what it illegally does now.
41 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by frank_gore_is_da_best 9 years ago
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