The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Losing
6 Points
The Contender
spoon171
Con (against)
Winning
40 Points

fornication is wrong

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/27/2007 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,510 times Debate No: 1064
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (14)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

honestly, i'm not sure where i stand on this issue. my religous upbringing has messed me up.

i could see saying fornication, even when it's done as responsibly as possible, is inherently bad. the feelings of permanency that one has for another, indicates we're to save ourselves for that one other person. and the guilt associated with fornication, is also an indication that it's wrong.

of course, these are just my feelings, and i could see a rational statement being put otherwise. given both are rational, it'd seem i'd defer to "feelings".

i want others' feelings.
spoon171

Con

What is this, 1893? Seriously, who uses the word fornication anymore? You seem to confliate fornication (sex) and having feelings for someone else. This means your stance, the way you have framed the debate is that all sex is wrong. (see your title of the debate "fornication is wrong") This means that when two people have committed themselves to each other through the institution of marriage, they cannot have sex for means of procreation, which means, once the youth of today were to die off, the human species would no longer exist.

Now you make the statement that your "religious upbringing has messed you up" and I am curious what you were taught through your religious upbringing. Here are a couple of things I have found through my studies of different religions.

First, I'll start with christianity. According to Genesis:

(Gen 1:26-31) Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." {27} So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. {28} God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." {29} Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. {30} And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food." And it was so. {31} God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day.

This means that God made man in his own image, and the duty of the man and the woman is to "be fruitful and increase in number"

In terms of islam, according to muslim-canada.org:

"According to Islam, procreation is not the sole and only purpose of marriage. While procreation is a primary purpose, companionship and enjoyment of the spouse along with avoidance of unlawful or sinful relationships are also secondary purposes. These secondary purposes play their own important roles in the Islamic teachings which govern sexual relations. In other words, although procreation is definitely an aim, it is not an exclusive aim. Procreation is the major purpose, but nonetheless enjoyment and other purposes also play significant roles in married life as evidenced by the Islamic teachings which relate to sexual relations.

Although the primary purpose of sex is procreation, the Qur'an does not forbid it when a woman reaches menopause. For example, in the Qur'an is the story is about the Prophet Zakariya a.s.(2) (Christian spelling -- Zakaria) [see Qur'an 19:1-15] who had fathered a child well into his old age. One verse in particular reads:

"He [Zakariya] said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son, when my wife is barren and I have grown quite decrepit from old age?" [Qur'an 19:8]

"He said: "So (it will be): thy Lord saith, "That is easy for Me: I did indeed create thee before, when thou hadst been nothing!" [Qur'an 19:9] "

According to SFgate.com, the female orgasm brings one a closeness to god:

"Let us open up a little, go deep and explore and probe further and say, ahh yes. Because it can also be very easily argued that the female orgasm is, quite simply, the Great Mystical Link, the hot divine thing that connects and communicates and interrelates between heaven and Earth, mind and body, soul and sky, dream state and anal bead, Astroglide and God.

Maybe, in other words, the female orgasm doesn't need a purely biological purpose. Maybe it's about something more. Maybe it has -- dare we say it? -- a spiritual purpose. Vibrational. Transcendental. Gasp! Hide the children."

These are three different religious interpretations that give value to the act of "fornication." I look foreward to your insight and "feelings."
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

this is why i posted two debates, to ensure i actually got a quality response and gloss over the fluff.

fornication by common usage means sex before marriage. by jewish law, it simply meant unlawful sex.
it has never meant so general that marital sex is wrong, so that's obviously not what i intended.
what i intended is even more clear when i wrote that it's not wrong to save yourself for that one other person.

i don't know if you were quoting genesis to prove that sex during marriage is okay.... you shouldn't as no reasonable person disputes that.
as for sex before marraige, it doesn't prove anything. This means that God made man in his own image, and the duty of the man and the woman is to "be fruitful and increase in number"

for the first islam quote, about two purposes for sex, again i don't dispute sex before marraige. in the context before marriage, it doesn't say you can fornicate. i'm almost certain the quaran says you can't. sex can have a dual purpose within marraige. think about it.

i don't even know what you're trying to show with the following, as it does not make sense within the context of your argument:

------
Although the primary purpose of sex is procreation, the Qur'an does not forbid it when a woman reaches menopause. For example, in the Qur'an is the story is about the Prophet Zakariya a.s.(2) (Christian spelling -- Zakaria) [see Qur'an 19:1-15] who had fathered a child well into his old age. One verse in particular reads:

"He [Zakariya] said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son, when my wife is barren and I have grown quite decrepit from old age?" [Qur'an 19:8]

"He said: "So (it will be): thy Lord saith, "That is easy for Me: I did indeed create thee before, when thou hadst been nothing!" [Qur'an 19:9] "
-------------

all the stuff about the spirital nature of the orgasm only shows that orgasms have a spirital nature. no one should dispute this; i don't. so your quotes are irrelevant.
spoon171

Con

Ah, touche salesman, maybe I should open a dictionary and read the definition of the term fornication before I made all of my arguments dealing with religion and marital sex. However, I still find a few of your arguments to dispute.

You make the comment that "i don't dispute sex before marraige" However, after I decided to open a dictionary...the American Heritige Dictionary defines fornication as "Sexual intercourse between partners who are not married to each other." This means all premarital sex is constituted as fornication. Therefore you have shown in replies to my argument you so lovingly call "fluff" that you disagree with your overarching claim that all fornication is wrong.

Finally, I'll stick with my argument that orgasms are spiritual in nature. You say that it is irrelevant to this debate, however I think you are wrong. If you deny all fornication, you deny more orgasms, which deny more closeness and feelings of oness towards god. You could say that many can achieve these moments with god via masturbation, however it would be good to share that moment with someone else.

In the end, I am unsure as to what your argument really is. You say fornication is wrong, but premarital sex is not? I have no clue what to debate against, you say that it is not wrong to save yourself for someone, but say its okay to not......Either my arguments, or your discussion of your own show that you believe that fornication is not wrong......which means you lose the debate.
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

as per common usage, though, fornication refers to sex before marraige. and, again, if you read my first post, it's clear that's what i was referring to "save yourself" etc.

your spiritual nature arguments are compelling. too bad you didn't argue it the first time, but they're decent. the first time you onlyrefered to spirtual sex, something not excluded in marital sex.
what do you consider about all that feelings of "for one only" and guilt that people like me feel? do you contend it's social conditioning? do you find that you have no feelings like that, or is your's mere theoretical debating?

when i masturbate, and others ahve told me this, they dream of being with anothier, not just for f&cking's sake, but for closeness. and feel alone and such afterwards. it seems masturbation might be wrong, too. please be honest in your feelings, not just theory. not saying that you are being just theoretical but, just make clear the context, just saying is all.

i never said sex before marraige is wrong. in fact, if you read both of my posts, i state that.

"for the first islam quote, about two purposes for sex, again i don't dispute sex before marraige. in the context marriage, it doesn't say you can fornicate. i'm almost certain the quaran says you can't. sex can have a dual purpose within marraige. think about it."
i did say that, which is hard to follow, but does hint that "doesn't say you can fornicate" means it's wrong. and that dual purpose in marraige is there for another hint. etc
the first sentence was suppose to be ".. sex before marriage can be unitive" the quotes after that qualify my ideas to show that sex before marriage is indeed te subject of my debate.
spoon171

Con

Ok first things first, I agree that you never said that sex before marriage is wrong, that is why your stance and framing of this topic is problematic for you. If you agree that pre-marital sex is a good thing, then you can never have a wholesale rejection of fornication, since, fornication includes premarital sex. It is because of this concession and clarification that you make is a reason why you should lose.

Next, you say that I didnt make my spiritual arguments before, however you merely sluffed them off and called them fluff. You say that masturbation is bad because of dreams of being with someone else or of a feeling of lonliness. This only feeds my argument why all types of fornication are good because they bring everyone closer to god with a partner. You say that you feel guilt because you are conditioned to believe that fornication is bad, however maybe this debate should be about a wholesale rejection of religious conditioning that focuses around sex, but it is not. And you finally clarify your argument about guilt in your final post. I believe that acknowledging that sex is a spiritual act that brings you closer to god will help overcome this guilt. However, I believe a wholesale rejection of fornication only forces more masturbation, which only breeds more guilt. The reasons why you indict masturbation are reasons why your argument should be rejected, because the alternative to fornication is masturbation.

After reading and re-reading all of your posts, I do believe that you never clearly state what your argument is. At times you say it is pre-marital sex, other times you say it is guilt, however you flip flop on these issues consistently. I believe that I have stuck to the topic, listing reasons why fornication is good, and why your arguments and your alternative only fosters more guilt, masturbation, and lonliness. I would love to continue this debate with you if you could more clearly articulate your position.

For the readers, dont get caught up in my original arguments about islamic and christian views on sex. This is an unessecary confusion that came from an original misinterpretation of my opponents arguments. I believe I have proven some benefit to fornication, and any wholesale rejection of fornication only makes guilt and victims of religious psychological conditioning feel worse.
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by alpineseven 9 years ago
alpineseven
Spoon, though you argue better, you loose the debate because you have no clue what fornication means. I will fill you in: Fornication can mean 1 of 2 things. First, it is sex between two people who are married but not to each other and second it is sex between two unmarried people. So that means two people who are married do not fornicate with each other. That being said there are two reason i believe fornication is wrong-one for each definition. First it is wrong because you could be having sex with my wife even though i am not married to her. Ill explain- if you meet someone and have sex with her tonight but you guys dont work out, i might meet her a year later and marry her. You have had sex with my wife before we were married. In my eyes (and i will admit this one is a personal opinion) that is wrong because she was not your wife. The second reason i believe fornication is wrong is more of a fact, depending on your world view of lying or unfaithfulness. When you get married you swear to be faithful to your spouse. By going out on Him or Her you have lied an not upheld your vow, which can also be very painful for your significant other.

That being said think how amazing it would be to marry someone whom was your and your only... Just a thought. PEACE<
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