The Instigator
linate
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
Samuel60
Con (against)
Losing
1 Points

from an official capacity, the roman catholic church has never contradicted itself

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
linate
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/29/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 471 times Debate No: 59699
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (2)

 

linate

Pro

in this debate, i am not counting the issues of limbo, or "no salvation outside the catholic church". (to be sure, there are plausible arguments about how those do not involve contradictions in teachings, but that's better left for another debate)

you would think if the catholic church were not true, that it would have contradicted itself at some point in two thousand years.

the only things that count are statements that are authoritative, things that could be considerted "infallible". the pope, intentionally, teaches, the church, on faith and morals. that is the criteria. it includes many councils and other statements by popes.

note:

-this does not include moral corruption, only official teaching. that means you can't use bad priest, even peodofile priests. it means you can't use the inquisistion where millions were killed by catholics. can't use the sins of past popes. it has to be actual teachings of the church, as said, councils and statements by popes. etc. impeccable v infallble, there's a difference.
-since we are comparing official statements, id rather not use the bible either. it's usually too open to interpretation to begin with. we are examining the church's consistency on its own anyway... and you'd think even beyond the bible, it'd have contradicted itself within two thousand years.
-also there's a differnce between widespread belief and doctrine. that so many believed the earth was made in six days, that the earth was flat, that man wasn't from apes etc... only shows they are human. it'd make sense at first impression. this isn't doctrine. you have to cite a quote or citation.
-there's a difference between practice and doctrine too... preistly celibacy is practice, reading the mass in latin is a practice... etc
Samuel60

Con

- Firstly, I would like to thank my opponent for starting this debate. I will not provide all of my information on this one round, I will save some for the second round.

According to my opponent; he is on the side that the Catholic Church has never contradicted itself through religion, doctrines, culture, etc. but I have a different perspective on this topic. I believe that the Catholic Church has contradicted itself at some point in history, I believe that all sects/religions have contradicted themselves at some point.

Firstly, it has been proved that the Catholic Church's doctrines contradicted the Bible a couple of times. For instance, according to the Bible it is prohibited to call a priest a father. Catholics are taught to call their priests fathers. In the first century Christians sects have never referred to their priests as fathers. Jesus has forbidden to call priests fathers; Jesus has mentioned, "Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven" (Matt. 23:9). In a famous book "Christian's Guide to Roman Catholicism" a reference to a priest as father is considered a type of hierarchy. The word father is only supposed to addressed to actual fathers (parents). While addressing the priest as a father you're stealing the original title from an actual father. This reference is originally used to address people that you have a strong bond/relationship with.

Secondly, Catholics pray repetitive words using Rosary beads, which is considered forbidden as well. The prayer beads were first invented in 1090 A.D. by Peter the Hermit, but they became popular 1208 A.D. by St. Dominic. Catholics pray "hail Marys" 150 times. Originally it's supposed to be a plasms, "angels singing" not "men praying" (Revelation 4:8). Catholics stole the ideas from the Pagans. According to Mathew 6:7, " And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words."

Catholics believe that virgin Mary never had sex and that Jesus didn't have any brothers. It is also said that Catholics praise Mary more than Jesus. There is actual proof that some Catholics actually worship Mary instead of Jesus. In 1917 a supernatural event occurred in Fatima, Portugal. Virgin Mary communicated with three children in their dreams, afterwards the people of the city began worshipping Mary as if she was God himself. God has never told us/Bible that we are supposed to trust Mary. Here is actually proof that virgin Mary did have sex, "And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus." Matthew 1:24-25. Here is proof that Jesus had siblings, "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? "And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" Matthew 13:55-56. Mary is not the mediator between God and man, ""For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." 1 Timothy 2:5. Jesus does not encourage people to praise Mary, "While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."" Luke 11:27-28.
Debate Round No. 1
linate

Pro

i specifically forbid using the bible as a standard for contradiction given it's so open to interpretation, so that pretty much negates your whole debate and con must be forced to lose. as i said, we are examining its consistency on its own and should be able to find somehting within two thousand years.

i will give brief response but most of your arguments are canned responses. given you broke the rules i wont do extended debate or cite all sources, just give you some food for thought.

Did Joe have sex with Mary? 'brothers' and 'until'
http://www.catholic.com...

catholics do not worship mary, they just give her respect. they ask for prayers the same way one asks a friend for prayers, and prays for lost ones the same one you pray for your lost loved ones when they die or hope they can hear you. the whole first part of the Hail Mary is taken from the bible peice by piece.... "hail mary full of grace, the lord is with thee.... blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus".... most of this is from the gospel of Luke. the rest of the prayer is just asking to be prayed for.

i can tell you that St paul was referred to and asked t be referred to as 'father'. so it is not without biblical basis that one might be called father. JEsus was referring to father in God terms, not just as a sign of respect.

it is not specifically a ban on repetititve use of words that Jesus gave, he was just warning not to engage in pointless prayers. when catholics pray the rosary they are reflecting on Jesus's life.... that is not pointless. and it is possibe to say a lot of prayers and mean them. sure, if it's lip service as it admittedly seems to be with the rosary, then it is pointless.
Samuel60

Con

First of all, you choose to deny the use of the word of God (Bible), that is the only source that filled with plenty of information and the only accurate on out there. Secondly, you haven't stated the rules thoroughly. As I've mentioned before in the comments let's start a new debate that both of us could agree on.
Debate Round No. 2
linate

Pro

linate forfeited this round.
Samuel60

Con

I maintain my position
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Samuel60 2 years ago
Samuel60
If you contradict the word of god you contradict the religion.
Posted by Samuel60 2 years ago
Samuel60
I have a proposal to make. How about we start a new debate that we can both agree on because this one is really confusing and asinine. You are telling me not to use the bible as a source, but it's the word of god. I hope you can agree with me here.
Posted by Samuel60 2 years ago
Samuel60
Let me get this straight, I'm forced to lose? Secondly, you want me to find information that the catholic church has contradicted itself in 2,000 years. Well, I have found that information by using the bible (which for some reason you disallowed). I don't understand what you are asking. I broke the roles, but you did not give me straightforward answers.
Posted by Samuel60 2 years ago
Samuel60
let's have rebuttals after the first round
Posted by Samuel60 2 years ago
Samuel60
oh, yes, I forgot to add my sources:
1. http://www.catholic.com...
2. http://www.jesus-is-savior.com...
3. http://www.bible.ca...
Posted by Samuel60 2 years ago
Samuel60
Hello there! I am willing to accept your debate, but just to make this clear your are for that the catholic church has never contradicted itself. But to be exact, what kind of contradiction are you talking about?
Posted by linate 2 years ago
linate
most of the 'contradictions' you listed do not qualify in meeting the criteria....

"the pope, intentionally, binds, the church, on faith and morals"

the thing about the jews is pushing it, i admit. i would tend to argue that he wasn't teaching the church on that point.

galileo wasn't a teaching, it was something they did to him given the level of knowledge they had at the time.

you sound like you are pretty knowledgeable about the catholic church and contradictions. if you think you have one, let's give it a go.

i'm fine with pro having burden of proof. i'm going to argue the criteria whatever the case.
Posted by NathanDuclos 2 years ago
NathanDuclos
So your asking for contradictions other then the ones you listed?

are you asking for things like where one pope has disagreed with another pope? Not where they imply things 'like kill the jews' and it resulted in death camps, but more like 'pope Pius XII' who fully endorsed the nazi state, but then 2009 the pope said they shouldn't kill jews openly. Do you want direct verbal contradiction like 'every pope said the sun revolved around the earth' or 'evolution is wrong' up in till this last 40 years where they forgave gallio and admit the evolution is gods handy work rather then it was wrong?" or "we believe in protecting children and the laws of other countries" but harbors pedophiles and actively tries to stop there prosecution, .

Also you are making a claim, the BOP is on you, but your asking CON to hold the BOP? I'm confused. . .
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
linateSamuel60Tied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
linateSamuel60Tied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct goes to both because Pro ff a round, but Con violated the rules. Arguments to Pro because Con dint offer any evidence that the Catholic Church ever contradicted ITSELF. The resolution was not about if it contradicted the Bible.