The Instigator
flames
Pro (for)
Losing
5 Points
The Contender
BangBang-Coconut
Con (against)
Winning
13 Points

giving hard working illegal immigrants american citizenship

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/12/2011 Category: Politics
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,484 times Debate No: 15337
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (0)
Votes (6)

 

flames

Pro

I believe it is the right thing to do Their the hardest working people in america

they work long difficult hours doing jobs no one else wants to for very low pay

give them citizenship and let them help rebuild america

This country was built on immigration

For this debate their our three rounds
For the con it is up to them to show why it is wrong to not give hard working illegal immigrants citizenship
BangBang-Coconut

Con

This is an interesting resolution; one which I'm sure many Americans have though about at one time or another. When we begin to look at illegal immigration we can see and weight several things; and at the finish we realize this.

It is by no means right to give something to those who would steal it.

Now my opponent brings up something in his constructive that really frames the debate, that the United States was indeed founded on immigration, and those policies are still things we value today.
We still hold true to the idea that any-one of any background can come to this country.

Now that includes the citizens who choose to come illegally. If they truly desired a better life for themselves, there are proper means by which they can obtain this better life. That is though naturalization and legal immigration.

However every single day, many people simple show grave disrespect for Our country's laws. Instead of looking to the proper means, instead of working hard for their citizenship (as many people do) They steal it for themselves. And while doing so take Jobs, away from those who need them; Cause a drain on social funds that could be used elsewhere; they don't pay taxes but reap the befits of Public education for their children, and the rest of society.

They are criminals, just the same as one who would work hard to rob a bank, or steal jewelery.
So I conclude with this, why in any scope of the word; by any definition is it ever right to reward those who break the law?

it is through this question we conclude that it is wrong to give citizenship to those ho do not deserve it.
For all these reasons, I urge a Con vote.
Debate Round No. 1
flames

Pro

If the law is morally wrong then their is a right to break it, it was against the law to help a black slave escape. If someone had helped a black slave escape and broke the law in doing so is that person a criminal and should they have bin punished??

America was founded on illegal immigration american immigrants took this land from the aboriginals, so arn't we all criminals, then this country was built on breaking rules and laws, first immigrants to america came in took what they wanted from the aboriginols and shot them

If a law is morally wrong then it is ok to break it, their use to be laws no dogs and blacks allowed into white schools white library's white stores, now if a african american during the 20's had entered a white school or library or store would that make the african american criminal hence should of bin punished??

WAS ROSA PARK A CRIMINAL FOR BREAKING THE LAW?
I think she was a hero for standing up for black rights in that bus

if the law is morally wrong then it is ok to break it

I believe not giving good hard working illegal immigrants citizenships is morally wrong and hence it is ok for them to break the law being in the united states, cause many of them are modern day slaves an live like this to feed their family's, let them have citizenships so they can have proper worker rights and can contribute in taxes

If their child is fighting for the united states do you still believe the family of the child should be deported?

third argument im going to talk about america's immigration system that makes it almost impossible for the poor in third world country's to come to america, being indian american and having the privilidge of going to india and visiting and learning what is required to come to america I will point out why most legal immigrants have far more advantages over illegal immigrants when it comes to getting into the united states legally

Common sence question to ask is why do so many of these illegals risk their lives knowing many have died trying to cross the border when they could come here legally??

common sence would say its much better to be patient go through the proper paper work to come legally into the united states and have your equal rights, then risk your life to live like a slave fearing deportation

If you say it was right for rosa park to stand up for black rights and she wasn't a criminal for it then you would be a hypocrite to vote against letting illegal immigrants become citizens because they broke the law by crossing the border
and living like slaves so they can feed their kids, especially if they have members who are over seas fighting

If you see this fight to let illegals get their citizenships are era of the civil rights movement then you vote pro on citizenship if you are against this era's civil rights movement then you would vote for con
BangBang-Coconut

Con

First, the law is not morally wrong in the current system. It is put in place to help the citizens of the U.S. and the citizens of other countries as well. As I already said there are means to undergo Legal immigration, these illegal immigrants completely ignore them for their own personal gain. and second this is not the same as the Black Slaves in our earlier history; the slaves where oppressed, Illegal immigrants are impatient.

Secondly no it was not. There where no laws in place regarding the matter at the time, and even if you choose to accept this fallacious claim that is no reason to continue something that is wrong. That's same as saying, "this website was founded on Murder, so we should keep killing people"

Extend my prior arguments on Black Slaves

Rosa Parks has nothing to do with illegal immigration. you are completely off base, and off topic. Instead of arguing the issue at hand, you are arguing moral subjectivity.

Extend my prior argument on Black Slaves

Now my opponent says he believes these illegal immigrants should be given their citizenship because they work hard. If that's the case, should we reward bank-robbers and other criminals if they put effort into it? No.
We need to continue to deport these law-breakers and uphold protection of Legal U.S. Citizens

I don't understand you claim here. Besides if a child is born in the U.S. they are a U.S. citizen. They can simply go back with their parent's to their country until they grow up, and then come back to the U.S.

My opponent also claims that becoming an american citizen is "almost impossible" Well then if this is true, the solution is not to break the law for selfish personal gain. But to study hard and over-come!

Also please ignore my opponent's "common sence [sense]" arguments. In any fair debate we can have no givens, nor look to something generically called "common sence [sense]" the fact is that since there is opposition, it is not common sense.

Again extend my black slaves argument. also the "overseas fighting" part makes no sense. You cannot join the U.S. Military unless you are a U.S. citizen.

In closing, my opponent gives nothing in the way of any manner of intelligent fodder to gauge this debate. They rely entirely on pathos claims, and attacks at me. Which has no kind warrant or impact.

make the only logical, and appropriate decision in this debate, vote Con.
Debate Round No. 2
flames

Pro

They are criminals, just the same as one who would work hard to rob a bank, or steal jewelery.
So I conclude with this, why in any scope of the word; by any definition is it ever right to reward those who break the law?

this is what you stated, and this is why I used Rosa Park as an example, now answer the question and not cowardly hide from it was Rosa Park a criminal for breaking the law in that bus, and was she a criminal just like a bank robber or drug dealer, and should she bin punished rather then rewarded
IF THE LAW IS MORALLY WRONG IT IS MEANT TO BE BROKEN, JUST LIKE ROSA PARK DID AND JUST LIKE MANY ILLEGALS DO TODAY

The aboriginals had trible rules that the first american immigrants broke when they took their land by force and killed them. So yes america was founded on illegal immigration and further more the first immigration laws were during the founding fathers that if you can make it from your native country to the united states it was good enough for you to be an american

I can tell you never travelled so ill explain it this way, being indian american 98% of the people who immigrate to america from my community got to immigrate here cause they had a family member here that brought them over or cause back home they had the tools available to get the best possible education to get the credentials to immigrate to the united states, now in india their our many people who work alot harder and have worked alot harder then indians who have immigrated from india to america and they would love to have the same oppurtunity of immigrating but problem is the tools they are handed are not good enough, they have very bad schools were alot of the teachers arn't qualified to teach, alot of post secondary's in india don't look at the schools alot of these poor attend as legitimate, and alot of these kidss work while they attend school trying to get the best grades so they can help feed their familys

same thing goes for some of the poorest in south america, they want to come to america and will work harder then anyone else to have a chance at comming legally to the united states but the tools they are given arn't good enough, once again they go to horrible schools were alot of the teachers are not qualified, family has no money and they live out on the streets, kids during the day take up horrible jobs just to help feed their familys, and when they grow up many of them from south america risk their lives to come to america hoping to give their children a better life, and they risk their lives to cross the border cause they never had a legitimate chance at school at life

Most these illegals love america more then your average american and are the hardest working people in the country, they work like slaves some work 18 hours a day for very low degrading wages, if we give them citizenship we can let them have equal rights and live up to their potential and contribute to the united states through their hard work

Let them work and have a shot at a american citizenship they deserve it, especially the once who have children fighting in iraq and afghanistan, how can you deport a soldeir in afghanistan parants back cause they are illegal the least we can do is give that soldiers family citizenship cause that soldier risked his life to fight for this country, (something many cowards on the right don't have the guts to do but had no problem sending are troops to iraq)

As well some of the poorest of the poor in these country's start working at the age of 6 making few cents a minute and im pretty sure many of us heard their stories and many don't get a shot at education and many of them grow up in south america and decide to cross the border just to give their family a shot at the american dream

If an illegal croses the border and sells drugs deport them back, but if an illegal is an honest hard worker who just wants to provide for his family then lets give him an oppurtunity at the american dream and an american citizenship

This country was founded on illegal immigration and on immigrants who only had to make it to the united states to be considered americans

Lets start working on reforming the immigration policy's so everyone in this world has an equal shot at the american dream and the once who work the hardest should have the oppurtunity at it cause they want it more then anyone else

Only an idiot would believe a human would risk his life to cross the border to worry about being deported to live like a slave cause they didn't have the patients to wait a few years to get the proper paper work done so they could cross the border without risking their life and to live with the same rights as any other american with no worry of deportation and with full access at the american dream. Many of these illegals never had a shot at the american dream hence why they risk their lives to live the way they do to get to america and provide for family's

With the exception of Native Americans, all citizens of the United States are the beneficiaries of illegal immigration. All of the colonial world would have been deemed as illegal immigrants had Native Americans ("native," being the operative word) codified a nation of their own with specified borders

The real issue at the heart of the debate, besides the latent racist and xenophobic arguments hidden in a sea of fallacious arguments typical of the anti-immigration crowd, is directly attributed to the entitlement programs of the United States. Entitlement programs are simply, for lack of a better term, socialist programs that indiscriminately give to those who have not contributed. Why not simply get rid of the entitlement programs, but keep the people who have just come here to provide their family the best opportunity possible? Immigrants to the US in the past had to be self-reliant, learned to be self-reliant, and were some of the most enterprising individuals on the face of the earth. The welfare state, with the promise of instant subsistence, is the real enemy, not immigration itself. That distinction cannot be overstated. Medicaid, Section 8 housing, food stamps, public education, etc, are the tools of dependence. You get rid of that and immigrants, nor natives, can exploit the system.

This issue is today's civil rights movement and many against illegals are against them cause most of them our hispanic americans

If you see it morally right to give these illegals citizenships and a chance at earning a citizenship vote pro if you see it as morrally wrong then vote con
BangBang-Coconut

Con

Again, my opponent avoids the topic and does not cover the topic at hand.
My opponent has instead focused the entirety of this debate on semantics arguments. and off topic, pathos observations based on African-American slaves.

First of I will again clarify this-

The controversy with Rosa Parks was one where American citizens where being oppressed. When Rosa Parks broke the law, it was a right guaranteed to her to do so. The right to a peaceful protest.

On the flip, ILLEGAL immigrants have no right to come to he U.S. with-out going through the proper means. And in doing so, lessen the opportunities for natural born, and naturalized citizens; Weaken the economy by not paying taxes; and promote an ease for human trafficking and Sex slavery for themselves.

So with this now hopefully brazenly clarified, we can see my opponent's conclusion is baseless.

As for my opponent's aboriginal argument, this was something we cannot change now. I admit my analysis on this point was off-base and inaccurate. for that I apologize, but through my opponent's example we see the awful effects of Illegal Immigration. Mass Genocide, and the loss of almost everything from the survivors of those left.

As for your saying I've never traveled; first off that is incredibly irrelevant (I am very well traveled) and does nothing to further this contention. Most of these people who immigrate over here take a very long time to be naturalized, it doesn't happen overnight. They have the chance to study here in the states, where (just like every-one else) They make it, or break it based on their own effort.
The quality of the foreign countries is not an issue, as they can (and do) get that information over here. Also being that much of my father's side is from Mexico, Spain, and Germany; I also understand this topic first hand. However it's really irrelevant in the scope of this kind of debate.

After this point my opponent continues the trend of Pathos appeals, personal attacks and re-iteration of baseless claims. I feel at this point I've already refuted this so I won't waste any-one's time trying to re-has everything down here. Instead I just extend previous points.

And so in closing I am sad to say there has been very little actual debate here. The first round has some good clash, but everything following consisted of baseless pathos claims from my opponent. Seeing that my opponent transformed this debate into an after school special on how hard illegal immigrants have it instead of providing us any kid of actual fodder to vote on; the debate must go the Con since I've actually carried the clash on in this debate.

In the end, Illegal Immigrants are criminals who completely over-look the United state's immigration standards in order to do what is most expedient and beneficial to themselves. While they certainly mean no harm by it; innocent people do harbor this harm, and those who deserve no punishment are punished because of these people.
Millions of people work hard to do many things every day. My opponent has not covered my arguments regarding a bank robber who works hard to rob a bank. Effort does not equate reason to make something legal, it's the lazy route to covering an issue.

Vote Con. Promote justice, and protect the citizens of the United States.
Debate Round No. 3
No comments have been posted on this debate.
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by Willoweed 5 years ago
Willoweed
flamesBangBang-CoconutTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: education is beneficial and immigrants should be demoralized
Vote Placed by RoyLatham 6 years ago
RoyLatham
flamesBangBang-CoconutTied
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Reasons for voting decision: America was not founded by illegal immigrants; there were no laws against immigration at the time. Non-citizens can and do join the U.S. military. Con did not cite the huge costs of illegal immigration. Neither side grasped the issues. Pro's S
Vote Placed by Aaronroy 6 years ago
Aaronroy
flamesBangBang-CoconutTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: flames was very oppiniated. Regardless of a law is wrong or not, one must follow it. A law cannot be morally wrong.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 6 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
flamesBangBang-CoconutTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: "The controversy with Rosa Parks was one where American citizens where being oppressed. When Rosa Parks broke the law, it was a right guaranteed to her to do so. The right to a peaceful protest." indicitative of the clarity of response from Con
Vote Placed by WrathofGod 6 years ago
WrathofGod
flamesBangBang-CoconutTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro has a higher ground to argue from, and it worked in his favor. Breaking an immoral law is not immoral.
Vote Placed by TUF 6 years ago
TUF
flamesBangBang-CoconutTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Con follows framework, and made strong arguments. Both debaters did a great job. There were argument drops, extended as well. The rest was pretty even.