The Instigator
bizzer10
Pro (for)
Losing
9 Points
The Contender
LR4N6FTW4EVA
Con (against)
Winning
28 Points

god, if he exists has no morals

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/23/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,151 times Debate No: 4134
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (9)
Votes (11)

 

bizzer10

Pro

if god is and omnipotent being, then he cant possibly have morals because he would know that the universe dosent exist to acomidate humans and thire daily lives.

how can a being that knows everything look down upon us and jugde us for right and wrong when he would obviouly see existance through determinism.

this being would know that every feeling, emotion and action of an individual is determined by an unbroken chain of prior occerances, meaning that everybody does what they do for a reason. so how can he blame them?
LR4N6FTW4EVA

Con

"if god is and omnipotent being, then he cant possibly have morals because he would know that the universe dosent exist to acomidate humans and thire daily lives.[sic]"
Morals have no bearing on whether the Universe exists to accommodate humans or not. The relevant point is that morals are objective ethical truths that in order to be considered good, all sapient beings must follow. God, by being omnipotent is certainly sapient (and more). He has to follow morals to be good.

"how can a being that knows everything look down upon us and jugde us for right and wrong when he would obviouly see existance through determinism."
Now, he advocates determinism. This doesn't work for two reasons, a) he has to prove determinism, and b) there is free will, which nullifies determinism.
Determinism is usually supported by saying that the laws of physics affect everything, and determine everything. That means that determinism only affects physical things. That means it does not affect the mind, as the mind is not physical, the mind is a separate entity, although it is assisted by the brain. For example, imagine a cake, the cake does not physically exist, but it does mentally. That proves that the mind is separate and not governed by the laws of physics. As the mind controls the body, the body's conscious actions are not predetermined. That means we can do good and bad with our bodies and with our minds.

"this being would know that every feeling, emotion and action of an individual is determined by an unbroken chain of prior occerances, meaning that everybody does what they do for a reason. so how can he blame them?"
See above, I disproved determinism.

Quod erat demonstrandum
Debate Round No. 1
bizzer10

Pro

ok, i will first addres my opponents first argument.

yes, your right about morals having nothing to do with what i said but God is not a sapient being. He makes no judgement because of Determinism.

the mind is physical like everything eles, it is composed of atoms and is affected by matter like all other objects in the universe. thoughts and ideas are caused by matter and energy organized in a specific way in the brain, like everything else.

this means that there is nothing in the universe that isnt affected by previous occurences.

my point is, that if the universe is matter and energy obeying the forces then its like a complicated pool table. and no matter how complicated things get, there is still a cause and effect.

this means that there is no free will because everything that everybody does is for a reason, so a god that knows all of these reasons cannot judge anyone for their "choices"
LR4N6FTW4EVA

Con

Warrants PRO, they're useful for winning.

Okay, his arguments then mine.

PRO argues that because everything is determined by the laws of the physical world, God cannot judge us for doing wrong, as we don't have free will. Previously I showed that the mind, the entity that controls our actions is nonphysical. If you imagine a cake, there are no atoms that make up that cake, but it is there, in your mind's eye. The entities of the mind are not physical, and are free from determinism of the physical world. Furthermore, my opponent has failed to prove the existence of determinism. He simply says the laws of nature force everything to be determined, and this simply is not true. I showed how the mind is free from physical laws, my point stands, and his determinism argument fails.

My case:
First he says God is not sapient. But earlier he said that God is omnipotent, doesn't an omnipotent being have to be sapient? God is clearly sapient.

"this means that there is nothing in the universe that isnt [sic] affected by previous occurences [sic]. "

While this may be true, it doesn't mean everything is determined by previous occurrences. That is where your argument fails.
Debate Round No. 2
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by joze14rock 8 years ago
joze14rock
Ohhh, You should have pulled out a Spinozistic Argument to show how God has no morals
Read his "Ethics"
Good Stuff
Posted by bizzer10 8 years ago
bizzer10
an omnipotent being dosent have a concious because it dosent need one.

we have conciouses because we need to understand things to survive

an all knowing being has no need to think because it already has all knoledge and has achived a stae of no "entropy" if you will

for example, the universe has all knolgde and possibilites

in it but it dosent have a consious

sorry if this doesent make sense this one is a little harder to explain
Posted by bizzer10 8 years ago
bizzer10
our choices do have cause/effect

our experiences build up who we are for the most part.

everything you have experienced in your life gives you your

world view, thus effecting you choices and opinions.

for example, try to think of a baby sitting on a highchair,

do this without connecting your previous knoledge and experience of babies

if you do this then all you will see is a baby.

there are no emotions atached to this image.

now imagine the baby falling off the highchair and injuring itself

you should still not feel anything

the reason we do feel something is because we know what babies are

because we connect the image of a baby to our previous experiences

this gives us knolegde that a baby is somthing precious and fragile

and by connecting the image to other experiences, we know that falling is bad and causes damage to the baby

leading us to belive that the image is bad.

basicly, your past experiences with babies and falling affect your deceion to help the baby.

this is an example of how experiencs effect your thoughts and then your actions,

so yes, free will is an illusion
Posted by sonofzapp 8 years ago
sonofzapp
yeah everything does happen for reason but those reasons arent always good, and we are completely able to decide this for ourselves.
Posted by LR4N6FTW4EVA 8 years ago
LR4N6FTW4EVA
An all-knowing being can't have a conscience?, please do expand.
Posted by Renzzy 8 years ago
Renzzy
Voting goes for like, enernity. You can still vote on all of my debates, and some of them are almost 5 months old. Kind of weird, but whatever.
Posted by bizzer10 8 years ago
bizzer10
how long does voting take?

by the way god is sapient and omnipotent, a being that knows everyting cant have a concious, i can expound if you need me to
Posted by bizzer10 8 years ago
bizzer10
um, for the sake of the argument well say that god created the universe and evolution took place and resulted in man
Posted by Renzzy 8 years ago
Renzzy
It sounds ineresting, but I don't know. I have a lot of presuppositions I would come into this debate with. Are we assuming the existence of God? If so, are we assuming He created man?
11 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by KRFournier 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by flor 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by number5rules 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by Derek.Gunn 8 years ago
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