The Instigator
backwardseden
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
adirahalcyon
Pro (for)
Winning
1 Points

god is the Ultimate Source of Love in This World

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
adirahalcyon
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/20/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 493 times Debate No: 103264
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (13)
Votes (1)

 

backwardseden

Con

What? Is this a laughing stock hyena joke? Obviously god is not the ultimate source of love in this world. Duh and doy. This was a subject on last week’s Atheust Experience.
https://www.youtube.com...
A lot was discussed on last week’s show and we will get to that, but the main thing that I want to get to in round one is suffering in which there’s absolutely no reason nor excuse for it. But nah. Not in god’s kingdom because this maggotty god obviously loves suffering and treasures it dearly.

Don Baker ”I would love it if christians would worry more about the suffering they’ve caused to other people in the world. Christians have tortured and murdered jews and burnt witches and all these things and they’ve cause FAR MORE suffering than jesus ever went through.”
Tracie Harris “If jesus went through any.”
Don “If jesus even existed.”
Tracie “I guess my whole thing is I don’t get this suffer porn thing.” Well neither do I, nor should anyone else especially when it comes to children by the millions per year who are abused for whatever reason.

So your job in round one as pro will be to prove that suffering is a good thing.

In rounds two and three we will get into love and what a joke it is with god.

adirahalcyon

Pro

God is love. That's very hard for some people to accept, especially after seeing all the rape, murder, suffering happening. And that's understood. It's hard to understand why God would allow suffering, isn't it?

Well, point is, he doesn't. He isn't the ones allowing suffering to happen, he isn't the one doing the rape and the murder. According to religion, we have FREE WILL. And we can see we have free will since we can make any decision we can right now. I can choose to go on a killing spree and no one can stop me from that. God gave us free will and he says so in all 3 Abrahamic religions. He's saying how murder, rape, torture, anything that causes harm to others isn't allowed and that it will be punished in the after life by those who do it. You can find that in any religious book.

If God is love why are illnesses there? That's an answer that many people ask. They ask why a 3 years old kid dies from cancer when God can stop it. Why has God given us illnesses and makes young kids, and adults, suffer? God has said that he's given us a cure for every illness. Every single illness that exists, there is a cure for it. He's said it, and that's a matter of opinion if you believe it's true or not.
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Con

“God is love.” Well let’s just shoot that right down the tubes right now as your god truly hates children. Here’s some of his famous verses to state that. I mean do you read your bible? Clearly not. There’s no love in these. And all of these are ordained by your god. There’s plenty more also. I haven’t even gotten started.
But first... god is love? What is love? Love is an emotion. That’s NOT god. I have love. People around me have love. A blade of grass does not have love. Fire does not have love.
https://www.youtube.com... 14:00

Lamentations 4: 9-11 "They that be slain with the sword are better than they that be slain with hunger: for these pine away, stricken through for want of the fruits of the field. 10 The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people. 11 The LORD hath accomplished his fury; he hath poured out his fierce anger, and hath kindled a fire in Zion, and it hath devoured the foundations thereof."

Matthew 10:37 “He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.”

Judges 21:10 “And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the children.”

2 Samuel 12:11-14 11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun. 13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. From evilbible.com [The child dies seven days later.] This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!

Deuteronomy 2:34 “34And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:”

Numbers 31:17-18 “17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”
---- a different translation ----
Numbers 31:17-18 "Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

Leviticus 26:21-22 “And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. 22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.” Rob you of your children?

Hosea 9:11-16 “As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception. 12 Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them! 13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.

14 Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. 15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters. 16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.”

Exodus 12:29-30 "And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died."

Isaiah 13:15-18 "Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children."

No its you that can’t accept it. I mean “love” what is that? Its a term that everybody has except for those that abuse others especially those that abuse children.
Its not that god allows suffering. He creates it. Otherwise god is not god if he cannot control something. The worst thing is he knowingly creates suffering and pain within children and millions per year. To knowingly create suffering within children is as evil and as hateful as it gets. You cannot get more evil and hateful if you wanted to.

“Well, point is,..” You don’t have a point. There’s nothing you can say or do to offer a counter.
“he isn't the one doing the rape and the murder.” If god is god he can say “POOF no more. Done. Over and out.” Nah. he loves the suffering and agony of his subjects, especially children, otherwise he would not knowingly create it.

FREE WILL
* “According to religion, we have FREE WILL.” Really? According to what religion? Its not christianity which is what I am talking about. To prove it you show me where in the bible where god says anything like “I the lord thy god grants man FREE WILL.” In fact there’s nowhere in the bible that says that.
* Also god himself does NOT have free will IF he knows his future. After all, how can he if he is omnipotent because he will have already known his choices that have been chosen? That is NOT Free Will. So if YOUR god does not have Free Will and the ability to choose, most definitely man does NOT have Free Will and the ability to choose. Got it? And you can try and snake and dance your way around the issues, as 100% of all christians do, around the issues all you want. It will only lead you---right---back---here---this---moment------in-------------time.
* god knows everything you do before you do it. So that’s not FREE WILL.
* Being threatened with death as god has done oh so many times, that’s not FREE WILL either.
* Um no if you believe in god, absolutely not in any way do you have FREE WILL of any kind.
* Do you really think that for any reason that YOUR god is going to let you free so you can screw up his machine like plans with YOUR FREE WILL? No. He’s got you under his lock and key and knows exactly to the letter, like his robots, exactly what you will be doing with every single exhale you make, every single facial tick you fluster.
* If god is truly god. He knows exactly your stretch marks before you make them quadrillions of years in advance. You have 0 FREE WILL. Your destiny is always preordained and there’s nothing you can do about it. Well of course that’s only true if YOUR god exists in which there’s 0 proof that he does.

Well um no. god created illnesses to begin with. So once again that's not love. That's hate. Especially diseases like cancer to not be beaten. Yet mole rats do not get cancer. So YOUR god prefers mole rats.

Summary
god knowingly causes children to suffer. That's NOT "love". Sorry.
adirahalcyon

Pro

I'm not a Christian. But even with those verses, it doesn't say that God himself killed the kids. God has promised Paradise to every kid that dies and Paradise means no suffering.

God knows everything we do before we do it. Exactly. That doesn;t mean we don't have free will. If we didn't have free will, you wouldn't be questioning God's power either. We can make every choice we want. Why do you think murder is the biggest sin? Because it goes against our destiny and the plan God has had for us. He's given us free will which means we can make any choice we want. He doesn't need to say "You have free will." word by word, it's quite obvious. He's given us clues and indications.

If someone came and told you that they know every single thing you do before you've done it, does it mean that you don't have free will and they're controlling you? Those 2 things don't quite end up.
Debate Round No. 2
backwardseden

Con

It doesn’t matter if you are christian or not because that’s what we are talking about is the christian god as mentioned in the previous round.

“But even with those verses, it doesn't say that God himself killed the kids.” Learn to read please. God---hates---children. He put those laws, rules and regulations into effect so others like you could follow them. Is it any blunder why millions of children are brought into this world and abused every year? Its because of god and RELIGION. So you find “love” in any of those verses and something is seriously wrong with your bird brain thinking as is with all christians as they try to invent excuses, as you just did, to justify their means to an end.

“God has promised Paradise to every kid that dies and Paradise means no suffering.” Really? According to what imbecile? You? How would you know? Now you show me in the bible where is says this? It doesn’t state ---anything--- like that. I truly despise people like you that have to flat out lie and invent excuses to cover for their religion’s ridiculous faults.
In fact in the bible children do not even get to say one fricken sentence. So that right there is the worst kind of child abuse known - to be ignored and neglect. So you can come up with all the humdrum excuses you want.

“God knows everything we do before we do it. Exactly. That doesn;t mean we don't have free will.” Oh it most certainly does because you just described perfectly how man does not have free will.
Here’s also what you are saying… god gives power and more value to a person who rapes, beats and tortures his 6 year old child who does not have the free will to SCREAM at the top of her lungs and escape as daddy is punching her in the face sometimes twice per week for 14 years. Wow that’s god’s “love” - right? You are such a genius.

Tracie Harris: "Your question was regarding free will as an argument for allowing suffering. That's when you get into the problem of evil. Now the problem of evil as we all know is not an argument that demonstrates that no god exists or that god exists. What it demonstrates is that god is your god is an a$$eth. What she's telling you is she believes in a god, and I assume she worships this god? Its like is she 'happy' about her god?" Caller: "Oh oh yeah everything except for the old testament." Tracie "In other words what she is saying is 'I love this god who believes that the free will of the rapist is more important than the free will of the child being raped. That I think that its worth it to have a child be raped because I really really put a high value on a rapist's free will.’"

Even better is YOUR god could easily take the evil and hate out of what you call free will in which clearly does not exist IF you believe in god, but no he leaves evil and hate in free will proving that YOUR god IS evil and hate, NOT love.

"When she dies does she get to go to heaven? If she gets to go to heaven will she be happy? And she’ll probably say “yes”. And you say “Will you be able to choose and do anything you want while you are in heaven?” And she’ll say “yes.” And so you are basically saying “you’ll have free will in heaven?” So you have free will in heaven and no one is being hurt, raped, so you can do anything you want and no one gets hurt. If god has that power in heaven, he must have that power on earth. So he’s chose not to set that condition/ toggle switch which means he’s a dick." Phil Ferguson

Suppose free will does for a fleeting moment in your benign religion… then that means that your god is not in control of everything, he does not know everything, he is not all knowing and not all powerful, he is most certainly not omnipotent, and most definitely not perfect in which we already know after all he created the human race with all of his imperfections.

“If we didn't have free will, you wouldn't be questioning God's power either.” Oh I most certainly would because you forget I am an atheist and I 100% know that YOUR god does not exist. After all there’s no way that he can unless you believe in utter hate.
“We can…” Who is this “we”? Um no its you. “make every choice we want.” No you don’t. Not with without the blank stare of your god.

“Why do you think murder is the biggest sin?” Woah. Stop right there. Murder is NOT by any means the biggest sin. Not---even---close sparky. Do you even know anything at all about YOUR god? Apparently not. I’m going to let you stew on that and you think about what the biggest sin is. Sheesh. Anybody who knows anything at all about YOUR god knows what the biggest sin is. And then the second one is… So STOP INVENTING EXCUSES and flat out lying from something in which you know nothing about and pretending you do. Nothing, absolutely nothing p**ses me off more than somebody like you who tries to squeak his little roto rooter moo juice on by and actually thinks its going to work with someone like me who DOES know what he’s talking about.

But then again your conversation has nothing to do with god’s love. So let’s change the subject and get back on track.

Well if you were to have paid attention to the video what was stated…
Don Baker “Can we agree that killing your kid is a bad thing and that its not a demonstration of love?”
Caller “Oh my god that the most perverse thing. That the person was possessed. That god made me kill this person.”
“Don Baker “So when god kills jesus, that was a bad thing - right? And not a demonstration of love.”
Caller “ No I…”
Tracie Harris “Its perverse.”
Caller “I think, I think if he said it then he did it.”
So killing kids is a bad thing. But naturally when god kills kids its a good thing and its somehow justified and that’s somehow “love” - correct? Your god MURDERED 2,821,364 in his bible in one small little splatch of land alone. So don’t tell me that murder is the ultimate sin because then that’s a true hypocritical contradiction. And even worse is this god of yours would have had to have murdered children and babies in that figure. Even worse is YOUR god invented abortions. Hey what was the great flood with pregnant women? And yet christians are so against abortions. So YOUR god is a contradictory hypocrite.

Tracie “In the bible the only reason why people had to die was because god set up this system of sacrifice which is really weird.”
Don Baker “So he’s killing himself to appease himself for a rule he made up. What a bunch of bulls--t.”
Tracie “He could have just said ‘treat people well and I will judge you on that instead of people must die’. Let’s be clear on this. Nobody had---to---die.

Tracie Harris “If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That’s the difference between me and your god. He watches and shuts the door and you go ahead and you rape that child and when your’re done I’m gonna punish you. If I did that people would think I’m a freakin’ monster.” Caller “(sounds like) Truthfully (continues) you portray that little girl as someone who is innocent when she’s as evil as…” CLICK Matt “Goodbye you piece of BLEEP!!!”

Summary
So how is any of this god’s the ultimate source of ”love” in the universe? And don't change the subject!!!
adirahalcyon

Pro

It's quite funny because there isn't such thing as "Christian God". Muslims and Jews believe in the same God. The religions are the same with just a few changes. It's quite obvious you have some kind of personal problem with religion, otherwise, you wouldn't resort to insulting comments.

The Bible, the Torah and the Quran, aren't there to be followed word by word, that's your flaw there. It's obvious that some things were done by God himself, and others are stories and examples of what we should and shouldn't do. It's pretty clear what is what. God doesn't hate children in the slightest. How is it God's fault for the thousands of adults, with FREE WILL that abuse kids?
He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.
Matthew 18:1-5

This indicates that children are INNOCENT and are going to Heaven because their sins aren't taken into account. Same goes for Islam. Kids aren't responsible for stuff, hence why they're going to Paradise when they die no matter what.

It doesn't. This is pure logic. God doesn't control us, we aren't mindless robots that take orders from God. We choose our actions, God just knows the actions we will choose, he doesn't CHANGE the thing we will choose. Because that'd be going against the motive of free will. Having free will isn't having power... A kid has free will too, we all do, but the difference is a kid isn't responsible for their actions because they're children and don't have a clear understanding of right and wrong yet. You must not know what free will is exactly.

Yes, God has the power to remove all evil from us. But that goes against free will and we'd be happy robots doing the right things. What's the point of the test we're currently in if all evil was removed? God has promised eternal Paradise for kids, and eternal Paradise for adults who follow the right path.

We can make our choices freely. I can kill my mother in the other room right now, and God won't stop me because I have FREE WILL. But he will punish me.

Murder is one of the biggest sins. The first one is disbelieving in God, the second is murder. It falls into the category of the biggest sin. There's 99.9% chance that you'll end up in Hell for killing someone on purpose.

You should look into as to why God chose to eradicate the population of those people. The kids aren't held responsible and they'll have Heaven. Not all Christians are against abortions. I personally am not a Christian, still religious, and I'm not against abortions. In cases of rape, incest, endangerment of the woman's life it's absolutely a must.

I don't see why you showed me a video who literally called a young girl being raped evil. Yes, God created everything we have. The rapist will be punished for eternity and the kid will have Heaven for eternity.
Debate Round No. 3
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by dsjpk5 5 months ago
dsjpk5
Oops. Looks like I spoke to soon.
Posted by whiteflame 5 months ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: Dill777// Mod action: Removed<

4 points to Con (S&G, Arguments), 1 point to Pro (Conduct). Reasons for voting decision: .

[*Reason for removal*] Not an RFD.
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Posted by dsjpk5 5 months ago
dsjpk5
Hey backward, looks like you're going to finally win one!
Posted by backwardseden 5 months ago
backwardseden
@adirahalcyon W're done arguing. I'm not going to continue to argue with someone who knows absolutely nothing about religion and god. Thre's such as thing as a christian god and those who are christian who number in the billions would differ from a smart alecy kid like you who comes from nowhere to post his idiotic points in which perhaps .00000001% of the planet's population would agree with, namely you. Your lose. Now read the NT as its all about the christian god and that idiotic weepy whiner sneeze rag messiah named jesus who is not a true messiah who probably didn't exist and there's 0 proof that he did just like there's 0 proof that your god exists. We're done. Bye.
Posted by adirahalcyon 5 months ago
adirahalcyon
Yeah because I'm not a Christian and there's no such thing as a "Christian God". You sound like an angry, edgy atheist tbh. God doesn't support killing of innocents but alright m8
Posted by backwardseden 6 months ago
backwardseden
@adirahalcyon The christian god is most certainly NOT against committing crimes against the innocent. But then again you clearly haven't read your bible to make such a stupid comment just as nearly 80% of those who claim that they are christians do not. What do you think the great flood was? Do you think that everybody god murdered in the great flood was guilty? Oh that would have to include babies, children and pregnant mothers btw. And those pregnant mothers would be the first signs of abortions in which christians are so against. Wow so that's a direct hypocritical contradiction. Oh but wait this christian god can murder anybody he wants with his many genocides as listed in his bible but man cannot murder? But wait, this god sent in man for man to murder and do this god's dirty work? What? But wait - thou shalt not kill - but god kills. So once again that's a super massive hypocritical contradiction in which you believe and so do billions of others in which your religion is so hypocritically embraced. Way to go god. Way to go you for believing in him. And don't you dare say that you do not believe in this god because then that would be a flat out lie.
Posted by adirahalcyon 6 months ago
adirahalcyon
If God exists is a completely different argument and unrelated to this.
You keep mentioning people doing crimes "in the name of religion" when religion is against killing innocents.
Posted by backwardseden 6 months ago
backwardseden
@Shanor Wow you should take the place of Dr. Phil. After all you sound exactly like him. But then again YOUR god MUST be exactly RIGHT or its death. And that's right there in his transcribed bible numerous times. You might want to read it rather than fumbling your way through your ridiculous snot meat brainless infection of a religion. Nah. That's too much to ask I know because a 15 year old of your caliber has all the answers. Don't even bother telling me you don't believe in god because you are as clearly a fundamentalist as it gets especially with your round one in your so-called ridiculous laughable debate with me. You don't have a logical argument of any kind if you think god is real. You can't think, you can't rationalize, you can reason, you can't use common sense because none is required for believing in god, religion and the bible. There's no proof for god existing. So until that proof is found you cannot butt trumpet anything in favor of god and call it logical because there's nothing logical about it because you are required to believe in faith which requires gullibility without anything that is tangible.

"Why would you believe anything on faith? Faith isn"t a pathway to truth. Every religion has some sort of faith. If faith is your pathway you can"t distinguish between christianity, Hinduism, judaism, any of these others. How is it that you use ---reason--- in every of the other endeavor in your life and then when it comes to the ultimate truth, the most important truth your"re saying that faith is required and how is that supposed to reflect on a god? What kind of a god requires faith instead of evidence?"

"Faith is the reason people give when they don"t have evidence." Matt Dillahunty and he's 100% correct.
Posted by Shanor 6 months ago
Shanor
God both of you are reaching. One is saying "GOD IS EVIL AND HORRIBLE", the other is saying "GOD IS GOOD AND HOLY". This is not a debate, this is both of you trying satisfy your need to feel right. Seriously, if you are going to act this childish take your comment war to YouTube or some other site that cares. God causes problems, he also saves peoples lives, whether he is an idea or real that is something powerful. So instead of arguing whether he is good and noble or evil and nonexistent. Debate the Bible which is what is causing all of this conflict. Just saying "you can't prove he is real" is just as bad an argument as " you can't prove he isn't real. Come up with logical conclusions like how I did in my argument with you or this debate is useless.
Posted by backwardseden 6 months ago
backwardseden
Well first of all you would have to prove that this god of yours exists. Then you would have to convince billions of people that you are right in which you cannot do. You are the very reason why jews, christians and muslisms are at war with each other for thousands of years. Make absolutely no mistake about that. Its because of YOUR beliefs that billions will and do disagree with in which are clearly incorrect. Its why there are separate religions. And if you were to state what you were to believe in a muslim territory, they would chop your head off. So much goes for the "love" of your god in which this debate is about.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Luxray2854 5 months ago
Luxray2854
backwardsedenadirahalcyonTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: This is all around a relatively dull debate, but I really take issue to Con's conduct here. From Con's "learn to read please" to the "I truly despise people like you" to the sarcastic "You are such a genius", Con shows no signs of wanting to be even remotely respectful, and that's why I have to give a point to Pro.