The Instigator
DavidFlo
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
JohnMaynardKeynes
Con (against)
Winning
54 Points

god obviously exists

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 11 votes the winner is...
JohnMaynardKeynes
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/18/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 985 times Debate No: 60626
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (0)
Votes (11)

 

DavidFlo

Pro


there obviously is a god we can see his creations that is evidence of him because he created us in his image if you dont believe you are ignorant and you hate him

JohnMaynardKeynes

Con

I accept.

My opponent obviously has the burden of proof as he is affirming the resolution. For now, I will simply rebut his arguments.

He states that we can "see God's creations" and this is evidence of him. This is substantially flawed circular logic. My opponent's argument is effectively this:

P1) God created the universe
P2) Because he created the universe he exists
C1) God exists

This is circular logic: the premise presupposes the conclusion. If we remove the assumption that God exists, the argument falls apart. Moreover, we have no reason to simply assume that God exists because we have no evidence of him.

This handles every argument Pro has laid on the table as everything else he is stated is either meaningless proselytizing ("he created us in his image") or baseless personal attacks ("if you don't believe him, you are ignorant") or hilarious misunderstandings ("if you don't think he's real you hate him" even though you can't something you don't think exists).

For now, I'm going to pass this back to Pro, though I will note that he hasn't provided us with any evidence at all, and evidence is needed for his position to be valid.
Debate Round No. 1
DavidFlo

Pro

DavidFlo forfeited this round.
JohnMaynardKeynes

Con

Unfortunately Pro has forfeited. Note that he still holds an unfulfilled BOP and must prove that God exists.


In the interim, I'll provide a few arguments which, if successful, will completely negate this resolution. Note that it is not my responsibility to prove that God does not exist as it is impossible to prove a negative. However, Pro will need to take into account these contentions if and when he returns, and must be able to refute them in order to win.


C1) Lack of evidence

Normally we accept that the absence of evidence is evidence of absence; if you were asked whether the flying spaghetti monster or Zeus or a purple unicorn exist, you would quite likely answer "no" because there is no logical reason to believe in them. We may not be able to categorically disprove the existence of these things, but we accept that the absence of evidence is evidence of absence.


C2) Lack of necessity

Theists often like to raise the "God of the Gaps" argument. This argument is flawed for a number of reasons. First, it's a non-sequitur fallacy to the effect of "If A, then B," but we can never reasonabally make such a jump to B, with B being the existence of God. Second, the universe could function perfectly well without a God. From our knowledge of quantum mechanics we now know the universe could literally "appear from nothing." Without any evidence nor necessity, it is customary to reject extraneous ideas which (a) make no sense (2) lack evidence and (3) are logically incoherent.

C3) Problem of Evil

We are to assume that God is omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent. This means he is aware of evil before it happens, has a desire to end it, and is all-good meaning that he has a desire to end it. However, evil and gratuitous suffering exist. Moreover, the universe in which he created contains evil, but this was wholly unecessary. Why would an omnibenevolent God allow people to suffer if he and only he had a chance to stop it?

C4) Paradox of Free Will

Theists often ask us to assume that humans have free will because in order to sin, you must knowingly do wrong. However, this is wholly incapatible with an omniscient God who knows what will happen in the future. Either God isn't omniscient, meaning the concept of the Tri-Omni God dissipates, or we don't have free will. Via Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, it's reasonable to believe that we have at least some degree of free will. As a result, we can conclude logic that the Tri-Omni God doesn't exist.

C5) The "First Cause" Argument is Rubbish

First, as I've already pointed out, it is scientifically possible for "something to come from nothing." Second, under the premise that everything must have a cause, God would need to have a cause. This would suggest that there would need to be an infinite stream of Gods that created each other, which means none of them could be the "first cause."


C6) Occam's Razor

If we have two competiting theories and one has more assumptions than the other, we should reject the theory with more assumptions. The science tells us that the universe could in fact emerge from nothing. Religion tells us that God, who existed in a spaceless, immaterial, timeless state prior to the creation of the universe is responsible for the creation of the universe. We have no evidence for the latter theory nor must it be necessarily true, so as a result we must reject it.




Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 2
DavidFlo

Pro

DavidFlo forfeited this round.
JohnMaynardKeynes

Con

Extending.

Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 3
No comments have been posted on this debate.
11 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Codedlogic 3 years ago
Codedlogic
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Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by YaHey 3 years ago
YaHey
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Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 3 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by lannan13 3 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture
Vote Placed by FuzzyCatPotato 3 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by Robert_Weiler 3 years ago
Robert_Weiler
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Reasons for voting decision: Total forfeit.
Vote Placed by dynamicduodebaters 3 years ago
dynamicduodebaters
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Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by dexterbeagle 3 years ago
dexterbeagle
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Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by KhalifV 3 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: PRO failed to meet the BoP. In such a short time, con provided extremely good arguments against the resolution
Vote Placed by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
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Reasons for voting decision: FF