The Instigator
xenocard
Pro (for)
Losing
12 Points
The Contender
inspyre
Con (against)
Winning
20 Points

homosexuals going hell ? religion is a joke

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/8/2009 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,438 times Debate No: 9161
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (22)
Votes (5)

 

xenocard

Pro

first let me say something, i was born in a Muslim country and raised that way, and came to realize that same sex gender (gay or whatever they call it) exists

so this Debate will be against Muslims and any other religion that bans gay people or think they are some kind of Aliens

- why do some or ALL religions say or think gay people should be killed, we were created just like any other breathing person that way

- gay people are doctors, captains, engineers, teachers in every country from every religion they are in all high places, what is the point in ignoring the subject when i am sure that the very same people who still wont see gay people as normal humans also have siblings who want same sex marriage, be it man or women, it is just a gender matter,

where is the sin in loving another man, or women loving a women (i dare any to argue)

go ask god why he made it that way oh wait, he didn't say, he remembered all the tiny details like don't have sex with women if you are not married or rape, don't drink beer, don't sing, don't draw, don't ..don't, don't... you get the point

this may be a small fry compared to the corrupt happenings in the world right now but it is not so small to ignore anymore

i would believe in religion if those people had rights, but this has giving me reason to doubt the authenticity of religion and the system it works on

happy debate
inspyre

Con

Let me begin my argument by first apologizing to my opponent for the apparent intolerance that he has witnessed through their lifetime in the name of religion, specifically Islam and Christianity. I will first support your argument by posting the following verses:

JUDAISM

"[A man] shall not lie with another man as [he would] with a woman, it is a to'eva" (Leviticus 18:22).

CHRISTIANITY

"Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another" (Romans 1:26-27)

ISLAM

"We also sent Lut: He said to his people: Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. And his people gave no answer but this: they said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!"" (Qur'an 7:80-82)

KILLING GAYS?

The above supports the argument that the three major faiths do agree on the premise that homosexuality is not a normal or moral way of life. However, of the three, only Judaism supports the execution of gays:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them." (Leviticus 20:13)

Of course, this is not without contradiction:

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. ... For whoever shall do any of these abominations, the persons that do them shall be cut off from among their people." (Leviticus 18:22,29)

ON TO THE DEBATE

My opponent's opening argument in this debate, as stated in the subject line is stated in a confusing way. But, what I take from it is that he does not support the notion that gays will go to hell, and that religion is a joke. Let's look at these two issues.

WILL GAYS GO TO HELL?

Islam is quiet on this issue, as is Judaism for all its support of executing or excommunicating gays. But, Christianity takes a stand in the following verse:

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor 6:9-10 )

It can safely be assumed that since prior references in this argument state that homosexuality is a "lust" and a "transgression", it is considered "sexual immorality". Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven, as taught in Christian scriptures,cannot be inherited by a homosexual.

IS RELIGION A JOKE?

I don't think, especially from the experiences of my opponent, that religious people are joking at all. The issue of religion is a serious one, and a critical discussion for humans to have. The problem is that it becomes less of a dialogue and more dogma. Therefore, I conclude tha religion is, in no way, a joke.

A SIDE NOTE

I want to state clearly that I share the same disgust for intolerance of any sort. Although we are all at times intolerant of come ideals or concepts, it is only through discussion and debate that these things can be shared as human beings. May dialogues like this continue, regardless of the outcome of any single debate.

"why do some or ALL religions say or think gay people should be killed, we were created just like any other breathing person that way?"

They don't, brother. This is a general statement without basis.

"gay people are doctors, captains, engineers, teachers in every country from every religion they are in all high places, what is the point in ignoring the subject when i am sure that the very same people who still wont see gay people as normal humans also have siblings who want same sex marriage, be it man or women, it is just a gender matter,"

This has nothing to do with morality. You are appealing to subjective reasoning that can be argued from a number of angles.

"where is the sin in loving another man, or women loving a women (i dare any to argue)"

Where is the sin in loving your dog? Where is the sin in loving a woman who is not your wife? Where is the sin in loving little boys? Where does that end? Again, you are using very dangerous reasoning.

"go ask god why he made it that way oh wait, he didn't say, he remembered all the tiny details like don't have sex with women if you are not married or rape, don't drink beer, don't sing, don't draw, don't ..don't, don't... you get the point"

It is a different topic altogether to argue what it is that God has actually ever said Himself.

"i would believe in religion if those people had rights, but this has giving me reason to doubt the authenticity of religion and the system it works on"

Remember, you experiences are shaped by the religious expression of those around you. But, not all people express the same religion in the same way. There are Jews, Muslims, and Christians who accept homosexuals as their neighbor, regardless of what they think or believe of their actions. I am one of those. You don't have to accept everything a person you love does, and you should not only love people who are exactly like you.
Debate Round No. 1
xenocard

Pro

thank you for joining me, i will say that my header is not clear, becuase i do not who i am challenging, i am just trying to see other peoples view and to make them think that there is something wrong in our religions

you are being raised in a Muslim country and forced by the rules that was understood from reading the given religion into this country, therefore you are obligated to follow it

you do know that Muslims are not allowed to convert, even killed or not allowed to enter the country again.

KILLING GAYS?

The above supports the argument that the three major faiths do agree on the premise that homosexuality is not a normal or moral way of life. However, of the three, only Judaism supports the execution of gays:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them." (Leviticus 20:13)

have you lived in the middle east, do you know that some countries cut people hands if they steal and cut their head if they rape or kill? some other cities in the middle east practice the same religion but chose to put robbers & rapists in jail and not killing them, worst case scenario is hang them, how is this one religion (Islam) when the very same people who swear under it use deferent methods to punish people, ISN'T THIS A JOKE !

so you are telling me to follow which religion exactly, the one that will not get me killed, put in jail if i said to the people around me i love a man?, care to chose for me?

shall be cut off from among their people." (Leviticus 18:22,29)

ISLAM

"We also sent Lut: He said to his people: Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. And his people gave no answer but this: they said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!"" (Qur'an 7:80-82)

i do not want to bend the words or say i know what i am talking about, all i am debating is, god wrote religion and sent it to his people (we will go and debate which one is the book that god sent us?)

should i be shamed of myself and ask for forgiveness becuase i am not attracted to women?

my religion said that when i die i will go to heaven and have 4 beautiful women unlike anything on earth, but what if i wanted 4 men, or only one man? the message clearly said that men will get women, there is a verse in qur'an that said this, if this wont convince you of my situation i will go and find it for you

try to understand, it is hard to find the real truth about religion when everyone is using it to his advantage and needs (people in high places) so this makes it a joke becuase they chose whats right and wrong depending on the situation and mental status they have, keep in mind that some people are only educated by religion and have not read any other books to not misunderstood the message that was put upon them

do still not think it is a joke when, i cant follow my own religion what should i do? find another one that suites my needs? how will i know it is the right one and the only message that god sent?

so my final word on this, god promised us Muslims 4 beautiful women when we follow his faith...again what about homosexuals? are they a mistake like twins, people with missing parts or diseases due to bad intercourse or bad genes
inspyre

Con

My opponent is living in an unfortunate situation. Arguably, the subject matter his arguments so far speak more about civil rights than theology or religion. The problem he is addressing has more to do an unhealthy mix of religious government and extremism. Indeed, for him, the "joke" is one of hypocrisy, intolerant, and murder.

WHICH RELIGION TO FOLLOW?

In terms of what religion to follow, I can only encourage him to always search for the truth of every matter. Which ever religion or system of faith he finds that support truth and the consistent search for it would be an excellent place to start. However, he must be open to the fact that truth may not always be comfortable, nor will it always accomodate one's preferences. For me, authentic Christianity has served me well for 20 years.

ASKING FOR FORGIVENESS FOR BEING GAY

I don't think that one can ask for forgiveness for a state that one finds himself in. Sometimes, in humans, doorways are opened that are virtually impossible to close. We can only ask for grace to be extended to us and try go grow closer to Him and His truth. This will also mean taking to to soul search and ultimately make a choice as to the life that one will live. Get away from people who will push you down, and surround yourself with people who will love you through whatever situation you find yourself in. That may not be easy. In cases where it is impossible, you will need to prepare for a life of tribulation and suffering for your convictions.

So, I think that if you are gay, yet believe Islam to be true, you must wrestle with your faith to find your god's way to righteousness. Otherwise, you are faced with a difficult dilemma.

REWARDED WITH VIRGINS

Well, I certainly don't subscribe to the fact that men will receive virgins in heaven. But, your religion also states:

"And there shall wait on them [the Muslim men] young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls." (Quran 52:24)

"They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders." (Quran 76:19)

So, it won't be all that bad for yuo, I guess. :)

BAD GENES

I actually do not believe, as many do, that homosexuality is a genetic issue. I believe that it is a psychological one. Not that it is a type of psychosis, but that it is the result of opening one's awareness to something that becomes an obsession. Like people who can't be faithful to their spouses because of their heterosexual impulses, I feel that something opened you up to this and created a fascination with you that you cannot shake. It's almost like an addiction. That's my own belief, but I admittedly do not have many facts to back that up.

So, I would say that you have a huge dilemma - you are following a religion that condemns your sexual persuasion, and is being interpretted by people who are willing to murder for their interpretation. I feel horrible for you, and find myself wanting to do something to help, but unable to.

NOW, ON TO OUR DEBATE

The context of this conversation is not one of a debate. Therefore, because my opponent has been unable to proove that homosexuals will go to heaven according to his religion, and has not been able to prove that religion is a joke, the debate need not go any further. That being said, I extend my sympathies to my opponent and wish him well on his journey to truth. Stay safe.
Debate Round No. 2
xenocard

Pro

REWARDED WITH VIRGINS

Well, I certainly don't subscribe to the fact that men will receive virgins in heaven. But, your religion also states:

"And there shall wait on them [the Muslim men] young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls." (Quran 52:24)

"They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders." (Quran 76:19)

So, it won't be all that bad for yuo, I guess. :)

my friend the true meaning of that verse is: if a man desires to have a kid, he will have him without the complications of the normal life, not the other thinking in your head lol not to have sex with him.

you said:
BAD GENES

I actually do not believe, as many do, that homosexuality is a genetic issue. I believe that it is a psychological one. Not that it is a type of psychosis, but that it is the result of opening one's awareness to something that becomes an obsession. Like people who can't be faithful to their spouses because of their heterosexual impulses, I feel that something opened you up to this and created a fascination with you that you cannot shake. It's almost like an addiction. That's my own belief, but I admittedly do not have many facts to back that up.

man where do you live, you want to back this up.
ok tell me, what is th case with she males? they have a mans part stuck down, what about lisbians, what abot the men who do operations to transform to a woman?

they are all incomplete humans this is my theory, its not an obsession

you cant chose a religion for me, i am happy for you that Christianity have served you well for 20 years.
can i ask you something, can you be frightened by your own religion?

need an example?
how far do magic and jin are mentioned in the bible (gods other creatures invisible to the human eye and also mentioned in the holy quraan, and can be driven away or burned by reading specific verses.

one time i was trying to sleep at about 4 am in the morning suddenly i felt someone is strangling me i was about to die, it happened more then twice, this happened becuase one of my friends was at my house working in his computer and running sorat yaseen from qu'ran. the next day i told him what happened to me. a week after another friend came to stay for the night when he went for sleep, the same yaseen verse was running on speaker my friend was sleeping in the same bed as i was, we saw him strangled and flipped and his arms was behind his back, there is no way he can do that to him self, i have been in that situation and i know better. i asked eldery people about this phenomenon and they said some people have spirits inside them becuase they do not pray to god ......etc you know the drill, therefore they try to choke you and torture you when hearing that verse.

this may be science fiction to you, but these things makes me believe that something about quraan is true, unless some ancient guy really knew how manipulate humans from words of wisdom and i do mean people get burned, levitate, scream with un earthly voices. (there is more but i think i have said enough about islam sci-fi which sadly is not fiction)

in our islam the most hated fact about it is a secret you might not know it!
did you know that if someone was jealous of you he can put a simple spell on you that will give you bad stomach, headache and un explained pain., just by having a piece of clothe or hair and a photo with you. with some candles and needles and bang there you have it magic to bend jin with humans to harm them. we always find things you don't want to know about at sea shore. (sealed magic, sealed words mixed with candle to bend souls)

what i am saying is, i do not think that there is any other book like the holy quraan that can burn this magic and remove it. you may not believe this until you see it with your own eyes (we also have people who fake this, still when you see the real thing you will believe)

you see my friend i do believe in some of it, i am still angry about the homosexuality and this dogma they have from reading the book and doing by everything written in it like its the only truth. (if i had a chance to confront my people with the situations that contradicts Islam i would be killed)

so my religion serves me well if i follow it on my own terms, but if i follow it under my nation terms i would be dead by tomorrow morning !

and also one funny fact, this site is blocking any ip address from the middle east due to spam (becuase arab are close minded lol) i had to fake my ip in order to come here and debate !

now to the debate
every religion has contradictions and can be misused thus making it a joke for not being able to live with it. if the old people who wrote the bible and quran stood by every word in it and done everything that was said, they either were going to be noble or being blinded by truth

this debate comes to an END, i have enjoyed this pleasant debate i may have upset some twins lol and i am sure some of you had fun reading this, greetings to all
inspyre

Con

"my friend the true meaning of that verse is: if a man desires to have a kid, he will have him without the complications of the normal life, not the other thinking in your head lol not to have sex with him."

I was not implying sex. Just that you would be surrounded by beauty in the way you perceive it now.

"man where do you live, you want to back this up. ok tell me, what is th case with she males? they have a mans part stuck down, what about lisbians, what abot the men who do operations to transform to a woman?"

With the exception of lesbians, these are not people who are simply homosexuals. They have a difficult situation to live with. I have no answers for them.

"they are all incomplete humans this is my theory, its not an obsession"

I do not see them as incomplete, just in a difficult situation.

"you cant chose a religion for me, i am happy for you that Christianity have served you well for 20 years.
can i ask you something, can you be frightened by your own religion?"

I did not state that I was choosing a religion for you. I am not afraid of my religion at all. But, I am sure terrified of some of its followers.

"need an example? how far do magic and jin are mentioned in the bible (gods other creatures invisible to the human eye and also mentioned in the holy quraan, and can be driven away or burned by reading specific verses."

Our scriptures do not teach of things you can read to drive away evil spirits. That is a bit superstitious.

"one time i was trying to sleep at about 4 am in the morning suddenly i felt someone is strangling me i was about to die, it happened more then twice, this happened becuase one of my friends was at my house working in his computer and running sorat yaseen from qu'ran. the next day i told him what happened to me. a week after another friend came to stay for the night when he went for sleep, the same yaseen verse was running on speaker my friend was sleeping in the same bed as i was, we saw him strangled and flipped and his arms was behind his back, there is no way he can do that to him self, i have been in that situation and i know better. i asked eldery people about this phenomenon and they said some people have spirits inside them becuase they do not pray to god ......etc you know the drill, therefore they try to choke you and torture you when hearing that verse. this may be science fiction to you, but these things makes me believe that something about quraan is true, unless some ancient guy really knew how manipulate humans from words of wisdom and i do mean people get burned, levitate, scream with un earthly voices. (there is more but i think i have said enough about islam sci-fi which sadly is not fiction) in our islam the most hated fact about it is a secret you might not know it! did you know that if someone was jealous of you he can put a simple spell on you that will give you bad stomach, headache and un explained pain., just by having a piece of clothe or hair and a photo with you. with some candles and needles and bang there you have it magic to bend jin with humans to harm them. we always find things you don't want to know about at sea shore. (sealed magic, sealed words mixed with candle to bend souls) what i am saying is, i do not think that there is any other book like the holy quraan that can burn this magic and remove it. you may not believe this until you see it with your own eyes (we also have people who fake this, still when you see the real thing you will believe) you see my friend i do believe in some of it, i am still angry about the homosexuality and this dogma they have from reading the book and doing by everything written in it like its the only truth. (if i had a chance to confront my people with the situations that contradicts Islam i would be killed) so my religion serves me well if i follow it on my own terms, but if i follow it under my nation terms i would be dead by tomorrow morning ! and also one funny fact, this site is blocking any ip address from the middle east due to spam (becuase arab are close minded lol) i had to fake my ip in order to come here and debate !"

This is just a sad situation you are describing. I symathize with you.

"now to the debate. every religion has contradictions and can be misused thus making it a joke for not being able to live with it. if the old people who wrote the bible and quran stood by every word in it and done everything that was said, they either were going to be noble or being blinded by truth this debate comes to an END, i have enjoyed this pleasant debate i may have upset some twins lol and i am sure some of you had fun reading this, greetings to all"

I'm not sure I agree with everything here, but I am sorry that this was not more of a legitimate debate. I don't think that is what you were looking for anyway.
Debate Round No. 3
22 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by xenocard 8 years ago
xenocard
i do not have time to proof read or check my spellings so sorry for the last 2 posts.

i wish some religious guy read this and answer this simple question:
islam condemns stones, statues, photos and drawings.

lets be practical here, in our every day life, we will see kids playing with action figures (toys)
we see them drawing, taking photography and the nation is ok with it, we have tv, acting, music, i remember these things was forbidden ? guess some things change in time

hell even the kings have portraits in every home and office, streets etc

he why tbloody hell we don't have a single portrait of any prophet ok they don't want people to worship photos, ok what about his 12 followers, the people who used to teach or do any ****where are their portraits.

for sure the last prophet came 700 years after Jesus, how come Jesus have portraits and paintings, even if they are not accurate at least some people have something to relate to.

a picture is worth 1000 words
Posted by xenocard 8 years ago
xenocard
you are more on my side then against my debate, i just wanted another Muslim to come here and bombard him with my debate. becuase we cannot do this over a meal !

each religion has some good and bad points, i have been reading the bible and quran to understand more, my problem isnt mainly religion it is the corrupt system that acts in th name of religion

becuase religion said if two men have sex they are condemned to hell, thus the problem starts.

as long as that is written in a holy book, no matter what i did to debate any religios or a holy book follower i will never have my answer.

if god was there he would have said something about all his creations
if god was there he would do something about aids (he put an immune system for a reason)
Look at the rights for women, how they are misused and mistreated. especially in the middle east (they cant drive they cant have any say on any matter)
if god was there he would not let many innocent children die from disease and war) religious people will answer you with: children go to heaven if they die young.......
if god was there he would punish all people who act on his name with false accusations

religion will condemn anything ting you do without giving you mercy becuase its written.
if god was testing our patience and belief in him, he would have written something about it, unless the words are played with.

i often wonder, if god have sent us 10 commandments, why send another book or books and make us debate over it? at least the 2 stones had nothing to say about homosexuals!

there are so many fairy tails and they are almost impossible to belie they all fairly have the same basic stories

or yet, he never really cared what humans do except to just blindly worship him they way he like it!

there i said it
Posted by inspyre 8 years ago
inspyre
Well, seems like a part two to this discussion is due, my friend! But, in all reality, our discussion was not a debate about your original topic at all. It was a response to your complaints about your own local religous and political system. I am not going to engage in a continuation of the debate through commenting - however, I am available for you if you would like to initiate a new debate.

As a final response to some of your comments below, the reason that I stated that I have no answers for those who are, as you say, "incomplete human beings" is because none of the major religions truly address them with any special regard. In a religion, all of its followers are usually held to the same standard of conduct. The religion should not bend for the preferences of one believer, especially for an issue that the religion is already against.

So, I stated that I have no answers for them because we are talking from a relgious perspective. I have plenty to say about the subject, but my opinions will only result in a battle over personal observation, which defeats the purpose of debate.

I never stated God has forsaken anyone. Quite honestly, this debate was not much of one from the start. Good luck to you - I certainly feel bad for your situation. I wish there was more I could do to help you. My faith does not condone the penalties that your relgion tries to enforce. So, the only advice I have for you is to switch religions if you cannot live yours.
Posted by xenocard 8 years ago
xenocard
wish i put this on 5 rounds!
--------------------------------
With the exception of lesbians, these are not people who are simply homosexuals. They have a difficult situation to live with. I have no answers for them.

"they are all incomplete humans this is my theory, its not an obsession"

I do not see them as incomplete, just in a difficult situation.
---------------------------------

i will continue the conversation here becuase i came here to talk

"" I have no answers for them. ""

you are joking? so they should be without religion becuase god forsaken them, and exception of lesbians......

superstition or fictions, every group of religious people have secrets you should better do your homework and read more into it

you want a new debate start one
Posted by xenocard 8 years ago
xenocard
my god you are complaining about votes? ARE UPI KIDDING ME
and complaining that i have no facts where is this coming from, who cares about votes

and my friend you had no facts to support anything, infact i pity that you are lost in translation from reading the quran

twice you have gave me false proofs, better luck on future debates
Posted by inspyre 8 years ago
inspyre
You guys are kidding with your votes, right? This wasn't even a debate - it was a conversation in which my opponent provided no facts to support his subject. Wow, I think I just lost faith in debate.org.
Posted by inspyre 8 years ago
inspyre
Wow, unlikely. You sure have it figured out, don't ya?! There is a massive problem with your reasoning when authentic faith has no hatred of gays, but instead contains universal truths. Perhaps those who wish to ignore ancient truths should be cursed to repeat the mistakes of the past for being ignorant. You should really think twice between making blanket statements.
Posted by xenocard 8 years ago
xenocard
your words are so true, when in the 90's there where bearded people who catch boys during pray time and send them to jail becuase they did not go to pray at the mosqu, and kick you out of mc Donald during pray time, even if you was in the middle of teh meal (it happened to me) surprisingly the family section was untouched!!!!!!!!!)

now with the new king, he removed those crazy men from this uncalled duty (forcing me to pray and puting me in jail is not a good idea to give me faith)

i wish that i would not have written the bad parts about islam lol but hey there is some nice things in it.
Posted by unlikely 8 years ago
unlikely
The problem with religions is that they were explanations for the world before we knew that much.
science before science if you will.
But they are hanging around like a bad smell now that were a bit more enlightened
their hatred of gay people is part of this hangover and is reason enough for religious people to be ignored or even better ...banned
Posted by xenocard 8 years ago
xenocard
by the looks of your nicknames i assume you are twins

i did not mean it the way you think, please understand

some twins don't age like normal people, not all of them
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