The Instigator
vi_spex
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
godrulz
Con (against)
Winning
7 Points

if matter is eternal, surely a god didnt create it

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
godrulz
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/12/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 10 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 318 times Debate No: 100849
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (1)

 

vi_spex

Pro

eternal=no beginning and no end
godrulz

Con

To make your case, you would have to give scientific and philosophical arguments that matter is eternal and could explain the reality we see. Could it be possible for an eternal God to have eternal matter along side Himself? False religion Mormons believe matter is eternal based on uneducated Joseph Smith adopting popular 19th century views.

Wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions. Matter is not eternal. Many or most scientists now rightly believe that the universe had a beginning and that matter is not eternal. They have speculative theories on origins, but no solid evidence or definitive views.
If God did not create matter, where did it come from? Something (created) does not come from nothing. Life does not come from non-life. Beauty, morals, truth, complexity, life, diversity, personality, intelligence, etc. does not come from impersonal matter.

The most robust, explanatory view that comes from divine revelation, not raw reason is that an infinite, personal, intelligence, powerful, uncreated, eternal Creator spoke reality into existence (creatio ex nihilo....creation from nothing by His powerful word/fiat). Design=designer. Genesis 1:1 is a brute fact without explanation; Romans 1 says that the Creator has made Himself plain and we are without excuse for suppressing truth and rejecting Him.

Creation, Christ, Scripture, conscience, Church are cumulative evidences for God (spirit) being eternal, not matter. Eternal matter is problematic and not explanatory of reality.

If one is a materialist/scientism and excludes a supernatural God a priori, then one will beg the question and state matter is eternal or came from nothing rather than the more defensible, plausible, probable idea that a self-existent being has brought it into existence.
Debate Round No. 1
vi_spex

Pro

to say a god created matter or something comes from nothing is being a moron

so matter is not eternal? i dont care what other tells you, i tell you its not then, a god is surely not true if you dont know its not eternal

your insane drivel seams intelligent in your brainwashed head
godrulz

Con

Many great minds through the centuries, including former atheists who set out to disprove theism, believe that God did create matter. If there is a God, this is fully possible and actual.

Something does NOT come from nothing. If you argue that matter is eternal, you have not explained where it came from or how it can give rise to the reality that exists? Again, many atheistic scientists believe the evidence points to matter having a beginning. They have no sure answer how the rest of things came into being (life, mind, etc.).

You have not responded to my argument and not made a case for your argument.

Your spelling and grammar also do not reflect a mind that should be dogmatic on these profound, ultimate issues.

I am not brainwashed and saying something does not come from nothing is a defensible observation/statement that many great philosophers rigorously defend.

Can I assume you are in your teens and possibly dabble in drugs?
Debate Round No. 2
vi_spex

Pro

you just said, if there is a god, therfore there is no god, and you admit it.. the default is that there is no god, thats also why there are so many religions, and you havnt even tried to prove that there is a possibility that matter can even be created, which all evidence argues it can not

eternal=no beginning and no end

if matter is eternal stands until you have proven matter is not eternal or matter is created.. defeat

you can assume whatever you like, including there is a god, while its true there is no god by default
godrulz

Con

I know there is a God and know Him personally. My if...then argument was a theoretical argument for you who reject God. Even if you do not think there is a god, atheists can play mind games and say if there is a god, then.....I am trying to show you that you can still debate from a theoretical position even if you do not believe it. Your assumptions and conclusions are wrong and your arguments vacuous.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. There is sufficient evidence for God, so dismissing the possibility makes you an omniscient god or unable to make an absolute claim. Something does not come from nothing. A personal, uncreated, infinite being does explain reality, but eternal, impersonal, powerless matter does not.

Again, many or most secular scientists believe the universe/matter had a beginning based on the evidence. Cause-effect with an infinite regress of finite causes is not possible. A self-existent, necessary being is not a thing nor caused, but the Uncaused Cause. This is robust and explanatory.

You simply beg the question (circular reasoning) a priori without making an argument.

Disciplined atheistic/theistic philosophers would scoff at your juvenile debate. They recognize it is a balance of probability based on cumulative evidence and do not use logical fallacies to make the case.

I know a book, jumbo jet, painting, etc. does not come into existence from nothing or by time, chance, chaotic explosion. How much more is the complexity of humans, biodiversity, vast universe finely tuned, etc. not the product of eternal matter (wherever it came from), but intelligent design, Yahweh, fully revealed in the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1 says you are without excuse for suppressing truth that God has made plain in creation.
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by vi_spex 10 months ago
vi_spex
matter=transformation, never creation or destruction
transformation=from something to something
Posted by Mharman 10 months ago
Mharman
Matter isn't eternal.
Posted by vi_spex 10 months ago
vi_spex
to say something comes from nothing is being a moron quite simply
Posted by vi_spex 10 months ago
vi_spex
destroy an apple then
Posted by CosmoJarvis 10 months ago
CosmoJarvis
matter is not eternal
Posted by vi_spex 10 months ago
vi_spex
matter is eternal
Posted by CosmoJarvis 10 months ago
CosmoJarvis
universe had a beginning
therefore
universe = created
universe = matter and energy
matter = created
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by CivilianName295 10 months ago
CivilianName295
vi_spexgodrulzTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: (Pro) kept on using ad hominem attacks and never provided any sources for matter being eternal. And (Pro) had bad grammar since he never capitalized the words at the start of his sentences. So my vote goes to (Con)