The Instigator
zorasbrown
Con (against)
Losing
6 Points
The Contender
LearnLoveLiveLife
Pro (for)
Winning
39 Points

if theres no clock( or watch/sundials/wrist watch/any other time recorder)then time does not exist.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/23/2008 Category: Science
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,593 times Debate No: 4775
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (26)
Votes (15)

 

zorasbrown

Con

dear con . thers no sound without a listener . very obvious . so damn obvious is the fact tat theres no time without a clock.
of course agreed. but wat bout tat superclocks nature has provided. no one can deny tat . so wat if the clock goes xtinct. time wud very much exist with the help of those oh so loyal .unerrable sun n moon.
i need a reason to rebut. so oh there! opponent lets hav sum fun. !!!!!!
LearnLoveLiveLife

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for posting this debate.

First, I will translate my opponents arguement into English so that we may understand it.

"Dear con,
There is no sound without a listener. Very obvious. So damn obvious is the fact that theres no time without a clock. (?)
Of course agreed.

But what about the superclocks nature has provided. No one can deny that . So what if the clock goes extinct.

Time would very much exist with the help of those oh-so-loyal . Unerrable sun and moon.
I need a reason to rebute. So oh there! Opponent lets have some fun."

------------------

1.There is no sound without a listener. Very obvious.
-False, the sound exists, it is merely not heard.

2.So damn obvious is the fact that theres no time without a clock. (?)
Of course agreed.
-Did you not just negate your entire arguement? Must I go further?

3.But what about the superclocks nature has provided. No one can deny that . So what if the clock goes extinct.
-True, nobody can deny this. But, what WOULD happen if clocks go extinct, I will explore this later in my arguement.

4.Time would very much exist with the help of those oh-so-loyal . Unerrable sun and moon.
-Would it? Let's see.

-First, to understand why I may be right, you must first understand the concept of hypothetical constructs.
-----
In scientific theory a hypothetical construct is an explanatory variable which is not directly observable. For example, the concepts of intelligence and motivation are used to explain phenomena in psychology, but neither is directly observable. A hypothetical construct differs from an intervening variable in that it has properties and implications which have not been demonstrated in empirical research. These serve as a guide to further research. An intervening variable is a summary of observed empirical findings.

Cronbach and Meehl define a hypothetical construct as a concept for which there is not a single observable referent, which cannot be directly observed, and for which there exist multiple referents, but none all-inclusive. For example, according to Cronbach and Meehl a fish is not a hypothetical construct because, despite variation in species and varieties of fish, there is an agreed upon definition for a fish with specific characteristics that distinguish a fish from a bird. Furthermore, a fish can be directly observed. On the other hand a hypothetical construct has no single referent; rather, hypothetical constructs consist of groups of functionally related behaviors, attitudes, processes, and experiences. Instead of seeing intelligence, love, or fear we see indicators or manifestations of what we have agreed to call intelligence, love, or fear. Other examples of hypothetical constructs include gravity, creativity, menopause, and guilt.
-----

-Now, lets move forward to those concepts of "Unerrable sun and moon".

Time, as it relates to the sun, or Solar Time.:

Solar times are measures of the apparent position of the Sun on the celestial sphere. They are not actually the physical time, but rather hour angles, that is, angles expressed in time units. They are also local times in the sense that they depend on the longitude of the observer.

-Therefore, solar time is only relative. The same also goes for lunar time.

There is no official lunar time, but you can define a lunar time similar to solar time. It's 12:00 solar time when the Sun is highest in the sky (or the least far below the horizon), and 0:00 (or 24:00) solar time if the Sun is lowest in the sky (or the furthest below the horizon). In the same way, we can define that it is 12:00 lunar time when the Moon is highest in the sky, and 0:00 (or 24:00) lunar time when the Moon is lowest in the sky.

Because the Moon returns to about the same location relative to the Sun after a synodical month (about 29.5 days), there is one fewer lunar day than solar days in such a synodical month. One lunar day is therefore on average about 50 minutes and 28 seconds longer than a solar day.

Lunar time and solar time run are the same when it is New Moon. At First Quarter (about a week later), lunar time is 6 hours behind solar time. At Full Moon (after about two weeks) lunar time is 12 hours behind solar time. At Last Quarter the difference is 18 hours, and at the next New Moon it is 24 hours, so then the lunar clock and solar clock show the same time again.

---------

Artifacts from the Palaeolithic suggest that the moon was used to calculate time as early as 12,000, and possibly even 30,000 BP.
(SRC: Rudgley, Richard (1999). The Lost Civilizations of the Stone Age. New York: Simon & Schuster, 86-105.)

The Sumerian civilization of approximately 2000 BC introduced the sexagesimal system based on the number 60. 60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour – and possibly a calendar with 360 (60x6) days in a year (with a few more days added on). Twelve also features prominently, with roughly 12 hours of day and 12 of night, and 12 months in a year (with 12 being 1/5 of 60).

The reforms of Julius Caesar in 45 BC put the Roman world on a solar calendar. This Julian calendar was faulty in that its intercalation still allowed the astronomical solstices and equinoxes to advance against it by about 11 minutes per year. Pope Gregory XIII introduced a correction in 1582; the Gregorian calendar was only slowly adopted by different nations over a period of centuries, but is today the one in most common use around the world.

-Summary:
Man created time in order to explain the rising of the sun and moon, and how things progress. Without any way to measure time (yes the sun and the moon are basically "nature's clocks") time would slip away.

===
-Time does not pass.

To quote Neil Peart, "Time is a spiral, space is a curve". Yes, a spiral - right down the toilet. Time is a lame concept used to try and explain why things happen in a certain order.

It is all just a matter of perception:

Nothing happened, because it already has happened when you notice it. See?

Time is not there. You cannot grab time. You cannot beat time. You cannot save time.
-Because there is no time. Someone very clever has fooled us - time isn't real.

So then, why do things happen?
-They don't.

Why do events occur in a certain order? Why is there cause and effect?
-There isn't - everything has already happened, and it happens perpetually. Cause and effect are one in the same.

People worry too much about what will happen. Just stop it now! There is no need to worry. Something has already taken place, you just haven't realized it yet. But do not worry about it - its not worth the effort. Save all that energy for something more useful like taking a nice hike, a bike ride, having sex, or baking cookies.

Time just isn't real.
Debate Round No. 1
zorasbrown

Con

dear LLLL. U SPEAK BOUT TIS PHYSICAL TIME . WATS TAT? N OH YEAH IF U COULD AVOID ALL TAT PSCHOLOGICAL JARGONS, I CUD GET WAT U R SAYIN XACTLY!!!
U've spoken about all tat moon goin back to its place. dear freind my clock (needle0 too exhibits the same characteristics and m damn sure urs also.
an d yeah u just mentioned tat time is a lame concept tat xplains y things happen in a certain order . damn wrong!!!!!!!!! time is a concept invented to xplain how to do things in a certain order.
u mention time is not there and u cant grab it n stuff. but tell me one abstract quantity (feelings xcluded) tat u can grab and say its real. nothing watsoever. and guy i guess u r livin in some kind of an illusion or maya. tats y all tat talk about time s not real and tat line about no time someone has fooled us . i mean wat r u gettin at? m dfamn sure u've kept track of time and still do .so if u so strongly beleive someone's fooled you . dude , y dont u stop gettin fooled and do something worthwhile and suggest sumthing tat can stop the rest of the future generations from getting fooled.
LearnLoveLiveLife

Pro

I dont even know what you said. But I'm pretty sure I win. I'm not really going to post anything else, I already made my point.
Debate Round No. 2
zorasbrown

Con

zorasbrown forfeited this round.
LearnLoveLiveLife

Pro

I see that my opponent failed to post a return arguement within the alotted time.

I guess that means I win?
Debate Round No. 3
26 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 9 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
Put simply, if time were a human construct, it wouldn't constrain so many human actions, for example we'd slow it's effects on our aging.

As for the coarser example... I haven't the TIME to move my mouth to North Carolina and place it in the designated area. :p
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 9 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
"LearnLoveLiveLife
LearnLoveLiv
eLife
By that reasoning, we invented litres, therefore we invented water.

No, water is a physical tangible thing. We can see it, observe it, manipulate it, etc... We didn't invent it.

You measure me out a liter of time and wrap it up real good, then mail it to me.
"

My body does the measuring already, only it measures it in minutes. The fact that my body feels sleepy after a day is proof that a day exists. The fact that night exists, and yet it is not always night, is proof that change exists, which demonstrates that time exists, since time is a prerequisite of change.

Or is sleep not tangible to you?
Posted by LearnLoveLiveLife 9 years ago
LearnLoveLiveLife
By that reasoning, we invented litres, therefore we invented water.

No, water is a physical tangible thing. We can see it, observe it, manipulate it, etc... We didn't invent it.

You measure me out a liter of time and wrap it up real good, then mail it to me.

Or, in my opinion, you can suck my balls.

Either/or.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 9 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
But that would only be worthwhile if the quote either contained an argument for or against my statement. However, your quotes do not contain arguments, nor even imply the necessary parts. They contain naked assertions. And false ones I might add. Observe:

"
"While I am part of this world when I am observed by a third party, I am not in this world when I am only observing it. When I am seeing, it can almost mean that I am creating the world. It's not possible to be part of the world. This is a fundamental truth.
"

"World" here, which I presume is meant as a synonym for universe, implies a totality of reality. As such, you cannot observe any part of it without being in it, any interaction automatically places you in it (It is not possible to observe the "whole" at all of course.) Even were this not true, this would not mean you were creating the world (or almost mean, whatever that means), it simply does not follow. Nevertheless it is true. And I for one have not created the world, neither have you, for anyone with the power to create the world would create it in ways that please them more (for example neither of u, would create people with false beliefs, and since some people's beliefs contradict one another's, such false beliefs definitely exist, (at least I hope you wouldn't, and there are more things that I'm sure you wouldn't do at least one of that are true.)

"
It is not, 'I think, therefore I am. Yes, it is, 'I think, therefore you are.' " - Ergo Proxy from Ergo Proxy"

I was around before you thought about me, thank you very much. And I would never have thought up the property of using these sorts of quotes, so vice versa :D.
Posted by Rezzealaux 9 years ago
Rezzealaux
cest called a quote response.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 9 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
What's with the quote spam? And how dare you mingle a quote from me with that foul bit of metaphysical Idealism that spawned the second and third quotes?
Posted by Rezzealaux 9 years ago
Rezzealaux
"By that reasoning, we invented litres, therefore we invented water." - Ragnar Rahl

"While I am part of this world when I am observed by a third party, I am not in this world when I am only observing it. When I am seeing, it can almost mean that I am creating the world. It's not possible to be part of the world. This is a fundamental truth.

[...]

It is not, 'I think, therefore I am. Yes, it is, 'I think, therefore you are.' " - Ergo Proxy from Ergo Proxy
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 9 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
"Do you understand the concept of a hypothetical construct? We invented the way that we measure time, we invented units of time, therefore we invented time."

By that reasoning, we invented litres, therefore we invented water.

The fact that things happen is proof of time as a dimension. Dividing it into discrete units is the construct, not time itself.
Posted by LearnLoveLiveLife 9 years ago
LearnLoveLiveLife
"No, man might have started MEASURING time to duduce those event's, however, time still existed. "

Do you understand the concept of a hypothetical construct? We invented the way that we measure time, we invented units of time, therefore we invented time.

Things happen. Period. But until we started saying that things happened at 12pm, they just happened.
Posted by Rezzealaux 9 years ago
Rezzealaux
The old sound/forest question.

Just because 4L believes something different from you doesn't mean it's a fallacy.
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zorasbrown
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