The Instigator
dairygirl4u2c
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
NeenahLibertarian
Con (against)
Winning
25 Points

illegal immigration and outsourcing: practically similar

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/29/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,959 times Debate No: 1120
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (8)

 

dairygirl4u2c

Pro

it's ironic some of the conservatives who push keeping foreigners out, yet want outsourcing to go next to unhindered.

now, foreginers are often not able to talk english and wouldn't be able to contribute but would be on the welfare etc. but, that's a very minor phenomenon as most have jobs etc. plus, if your reasons are for protecting about that stuff, what about those who are intelligent and smart, why can't they just come as they wish and not jump through years of hoops?

the real reason, it seems, that we don't want them, is because their mass numbers would dillute our economy. people would be willing to work for beans, and so that's what employers would pay. the citizens of the US naturally would not be able to partake of its natural bounty, because the infinite labor that would enter would force very poor working conditions.

so, on the one hand many conservatives are against that, but then go and push outsourcing without restriction, which means that in effect, that infinte labor will for many purposes, push us to making beans. (granted there are some jobs that are not cost effective to put overseas, but very many if not most simply require a brain and internet or phone etc)

so to be consistent you'd be against foreigners comming here, and outsourcing lassiz faire.
NeenahLibertarian

Con

The argument here is very simple. Outsourcing is almost entirely representative of the shift in our economy from a manufacturing economy to a service economy. Many services require a person to be in this country to meet with customers, whereas manufacturers can be overseas and ship their products over to the U.S. Thus we need the labor that was formerly dedicated to manufacturing to sustain the growing demand for services. Also, outsourcing abides by the principles of free trade, which means as a general rule more jobs are created than are taken away. (The reason we don't see this, is that often the jobs taken come from a single manufacturing plant in one city and the new jobs are spread out over the country.)

Illegal immigration on the other hand does nothing to help the economy. I will grant the argument that the jobs they take are ones that no American, even an unemployed one, would take. Thus they are not "stealing" jobs from Americans. But, what they are doing is using government provided services such as healthcare and education, without paying taxes. This increases the tax burden on the average American, thus decreasing their purchasing power and decreasing demand throughout the economy. Not to mention all of the safety concerns involved in the government not even knowing thousands of potential criminals are in our country.
Debate Round No. 1
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

I acknowledged that welfare for some of them etc is not a good thing. But, surely it's a minor problem compared to all that have jobs, wouldn't you agree? You didn't address this but simply reiterated that some use welfare.
It almost seems like a cop out so you can avoid the issue, given that it's a minor problem relatively speaking.

All your arguments for outsourcing could be applied to immigrants. Instead of having manufacturers over there, we can have them here with immigrants. Instead of creating more jobs with that non-US strictly maufacturing, we could create that here with immigrants. (actually i highly doubt it creates more jobs, and if it does, i'd be almost certain it's beans paying service jobs. see, manufacturing jobs actually pays something substantial, which as an american in this rich country, deserves to make. evidence for this being the fact that the gap between the rich and poor continues to widen) You did not address why they couldn't do the jobs here, the immigrants.
NeenahLibertarian

Con

I didn't reiterate that some use welfare. I addressed government services such as education and subsidized healthcare, which are used by those with and without jobs. Other than the employer's portion of the payroll tax, illegal immigrants with jobs don't contribute to the government's tax income, meaning that they are draining our funds when they use these services without doing their part to replenish them. If we want to keep up these services at the same level then citizens are forced to pick up the slack which takes money out of their pockets and decreasing aggragate demand.

The new service jobs created through outsourcing manufacturing are not "beans paying". They range from car salesmen to stock brokers, many new services are demanded when prices go down because then people have more money to spend, as a result employers who provide those services need to take on extra employees. That's just simple economics. This is benefit is unique to outsourcing in that if we kept manufacturing jobs in the U.S. but gave them to illegal immigrants, the benefits would be cancelled by the negative tax-related impacts that I spoke of earlier.
Debate Round No. 2
dairygirl4u2c

Pro

something tells me neither of us is qualified to prove the theory.

you state. less paying to workers means more wealth saved by us, and thus more money for rich paying jobs.

i state. less paying to the working class like the middle class, means only the wealthy would recognize the savings. that's why it's a fact the middle class is shrinking, and the gap betwqeen teh rich and poor continues to increase. the only jobs outsourcing might create, is administrative jobs to service the outsourcing, like secretaries, and service jobs like a movie usher to cater to the richest of society that really cashed in on outsourcing.

both make sense from a reasoning through sort of way. empirical data needs presented.
so far though, it's a fact the rich poor gap is increasing.
it's rhetoric, but i suppose it's true, that the the middle class is shrinking.
NeenahLibertarian

Con

http://money.cnn.com...

That link is to a 2004 CNN study that found that outsourcing helps net tens of thousands of jobs because it decreases inflation and interest rates which create greater consumer spending and causing companies to take on extra positions. The study also says that GDP and wages increase as a result of outsourcing. That's just the first thing that came up on google, I'm sure there are even better studies and clearer explanations of the theory behind it if you care to take the time to look.

As I stated earlier this obviously can't happen as a result of illegal immigration because the increased tax burden on the average citizen cancels the benefits. Thus the two are not the least bit similar as one is an effective tool for economic growth and the other creates recession and safety concerns.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by sethgecko13 9 years ago
sethgecko13
mmadderom -

I disagree completely - the outsourcing phenomenon is all about corporate greed. Most of the corporations outsourcing overseas were profitable before they put their operations offshore; they offshored everything because they became even more profitable and were able to skip out on their obligations to treat and pay workers fairly (including compensating them when they're killed or injured on the job) and it allows them to completely abandon adhering to environmental laws.

It's not the government's fault that corporations are inherently unethical and unsustainable entities that prioritize short-term gains over long-term sustainability (except, maybe, for the fact that it was the government that gave corporations the rights of personhood under the 14th amendment).
Posted by sethgecko13 9 years ago
sethgecko13
NeenahLibertarian -

That study you're talking about isn't a "CNN" study; it's a study by a front group shilling for the Information Technology Association of America, and its findings only address job creation in the information technology sector - not any other sectors of the economy.

Outsourcing isn't inherently bad - but the way we do it (which is just a way for US corporations to dodge US fair labor laws, wage laws, and environmental laws) is bad for not only the US, but the rest of the world.
Posted by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
Illegal immigration and outsourcing have absolutely nothing to do with each other and the argument that we could ramp up manufacturing in the U.S. by allowing more immigrants from poor countries come here to work "cheap" is very wrong.

We have labor laws that apply to all legal employees. We also have collective bargaining and labor union laws. Just because someone may be "willing" to work for less in a manufacturing plant doesn't mean the employer can just pay less. It doesn't work that way. Also, manufacturing overseas isn't just about "cheap labor". There are many other benefits for the company in terms of less regulation and taxation. Our Government itself is what ran those jobs overseas, not "corporate greed".
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