The Instigator
brokenboy
Pro (for)
Losing
5 Points
The Contender
Atheism
Con (against)
Winning
9 Points

in a fight between pain(nagato) vs madara, pain would win

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/15/2010 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,346 times Debate No: 12754
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (1)
Votes (3)

 

brokenboy

Pro

While speaking derogatorily to Pain, he still recognized his power as the strongest in Akatsuki and for possessing the Rinnegan.--- taken from narutopedia
Atheism

Con

I agree to the terms of the debate. No semantics.
Debate Round No. 1
brokenboy

Pro

i would like to thank my opponent for accepting my debate and i am glad that he accepts my conditions

i will start off by nameing pain's abilities and give examples of how they can result to madara's down fall

1) Amplification Summoning Technique----Pain applied this technique to his dog summon. Upon being struck by a direct attack, the canine could divide into another identical beast and increase its power. The beast can then recombine if needed, with one body carrying the heads of however many additional beasts were created.
2) Blocking Technique Absorption Seal---- regardless of any special or nature transformation, and dispersing it within one's body by spinning the chakra within one's body in the opposite direction. As a result, this technique can absorb any ninjutsu based technique, regardless of power, without harming the user. and im not quite sure but according to narutopedia amaterasu is also ninjutsu based
3) Bansh Ten'in----Bansh Ten'in is a technique similar to Shinra Tensei in that it manipulates gravity at the users will, however instead of pushing objects away, it draws them towards the user. So if madara tried to teleport away pain would bansho ten'in to draw madara back to this demnsion before he could escape fully
4) Soul Removal----By placing his hand on a target's head this technique allows the Human Path to rip the victim's soul out of his or her body. This results in the victim's death. which means that pain only has to touch madara's head once to result as madara's defeat
5) Shinra Tensei----is the ability to manipulate gravity at the users will to repulse matter away. Depending on the amount of force Nagato puts in this jutsu, it can easily shatter wood, bones, stone, metal, or even some of the most powerful defenses. By using this technique as a defensive measure, all attacks directed to the user will be deflected, no matter the size, power or mass. so once madara solidifies to attack pain would block using this technique while one of the other bodies would use soul removal
6) Rain Tiger at Will Technique----A perception ninjutsu, allowing one to freely manipulate rain infused with the user's own chakra. The rain falls from rain clouds, formed with Pain's own chakra. During this technique, the falling raindrops are closely linked to Pain's senses thus helping him pin point madara's position
7) chakra disruptions blades----they emerge from what appears to be the third rod away from the hand on the forearm. Nagato can also detach the blade from the arms when requiring to use several of them, or to be thrown as harpoons. Each of these blades disrupt the chakra of its victim, injuring them or rendering them incapable of moving. When a victim is stabbed by the blades, the Rinnegan appears in their mind, suggesting that Nagato has influence over them
8) last but not least the Rinnegan---- In addition to enabling the user to quickly master various jutsu, the user may also use all six forms of chakra nature transformation which, as noted by Ibiki Morino, literally allows its user to use any technique they wish. seeing as how it is a supirior ocular jutsu compared to the sharingan genjutsu should not be able to work on Pain

also due to the six different bodies of pain that nagato controls giving him almost absoulute vision also giving him the advantage of power in numbers also all of the animals he summons have his rinnegan eyes increasing his field of vision even further

even madara himself admitted that pain was stronger than him

also unfourtunatly there have not been enough chapters with madara fighting to see his full potiential so these are the reasons i think that pain will win against madara
once again i would like to thank my opponent for accepting this challenge
Atheism

Con

Okay, to invalidate the entirety of your argument, Madara apparently has a jutsu that allows anything to pass through him as long as he isn't attacking. Since Pein couldn't actually touch Madara, methods 1-8 are useless.
Therefore, anything you can possibly throw at him would just phase through. The only way to kill him is to have a technique that let's you warp instantaneously, so you can attack him before he is finished attacking. However, since Pein has none of these abilities, Madara is basically invulnerable. Furthermore, even if he did have these abilities, Madara could just stay still.
Now, since all of Pein's attacks are basically useless, I shall enlist my method of destroying Pein.

1) Madara waits until Pein has exhausted his attacks, and then just disappears/warps the space-time continuum to appear behind Pein and then sucks him in.
2) Madara teleports to where Pein's feeble body is, and simply kills him.
3) Madara uses his apparently incredibly powerful Sharingan to make Pein kill himself by locking eyes with any one of his bodies. Rinse and repeat.

I await for my opponent to give an argument that Pein apparently has some even more game-breaking techniques than Madara.

"even madara himself admitted that pain was stronger than him"
Admissions mean nothing. He could've been lying. There was no way to see if he showed anything that hinted he was telling the truth, since his mask always covers his face.
Besides that, cunning, subterfuge and lying is what being a ninja is all about, bar the idiot Naruto. Lying is best for Madara, since people can underestimate him. Once they do, they are as good as dead.

RFD:S&G Con. Obvious.
Argments: Con. Madara is a game breaker. He can do anything, pretty much. End of Story.
Debate Round No. 2
brokenboy

Pro

1-8 are not completely usless its true that madara could phase through but if madara were to continually phase through he would run out of chakra quite fast and wouldnt be able to attack and if he did there are 6 or more eyes watching in every direction that would notice if madara solidified to make a move

1) as i said above there are 6 or more eyes looking in every direction that can see chakra and so the moment that he opens the rifft to come back to this dimension there would be chakra embembed in it and therefore letting pain know where he would strike next
2) no one has ever found pains feeble body except for naruto (who was lucky) and so therefore madara's chances of finding the true pain are very very slim also madara most likley wont know that there is even a real pain this took even jiriya the whole battle to figure out and he has had more knowledge with the rinnegan considering he had pain as his student
3) rinnegan are the most powerful ocular jutsu and so therefore mangekyo sharingan has no power over the rinnegan

yes he could of but if he was lying why wouldnt he just kill pain and start leading the akatasuzki and put moon's eye plan into action beacuse he didnt, it goes show that pain's abilities were highly respected by madara and most likely feared

Argments: Con. Madara is a game breaker. He can do anything, pretty much. End of Story.

let me quote PRETTY MUCH and im not quite sure what you mean by anything but if it means any technique that is in fact incorrect beacuse the only one chakra type: earth

Arguments: Pro. Pain is a game breaker he is considerd to be a god. The Rinnegan's abilities are largely unknown, but it did permit the user to use all types of elemental chakra, and allowed Nagato to master every technique Jiraiya taught him at the age of ten. According to Ibiki, the Rinnegan allows Nagato to use any technique he wishes.

thank you for accepting my debate and i look forward to your response
Atheism

Con

"1-8 are not completely usless its true that madara could phase through but if madara were to continually phase through he would run out of chakra quite fast and wouldnt be able to attack and if he did there are 6 or more eyes watching in every direction that would notice if madara solidified to make a move"

Tell me, where did you get the information that Madara's special jutsu takes up any chakra whatsoever? You are only speculating without any type of evidence. Madara has used this jutsu multiple times, and has not shown any fatigue from it whatsoever.

"1) as i said above there are 6 or more eyes looking in every direction that can see chakra and so the moment that he opens the rifft to come back to this dimension there would be chakra embembed in it and therefore letting pain know where he would strike next"

1st Counterargument.
We don't actually know how advanced Madara's Sharingan is, and we do know precisely what Nagato's can do. He automatically gets an affinity for every chakra type, barring the elemental mixes. He can use the six paths the Sage of the Six Paths did, and their abilities cannot actually stop Madara's.
Secondly,we do know that Nagato cannot see chakra in his opponent's movements, like the Sharingan can. If he could, he would've been able to dodge Jiraiya's attacks for the most part, and none of his bodies would've been incapacitated by Jiraiya.

2nd Counterargument.
As I said before, we have no idea how advanced Madara's Sharingan is. We have no idea how far his space-time manipulation has become. In fact, your argument is absolutely worthless because you say that you know exactly how it works. You don't. No where in the Manga is there a full description of how it works,only mere assumptions and speculations.
Aside from all those holes in your first argument, and the fact we already have a full description of the Rinnegan's abilities, not once is it mentioned that the Rinnegan can see chakra. From this, we can ascertain that Nagato would not know where Madara was attacking from. And even if Pein did know where Madara is coming from, he could not react quick enough to stop it. In fact, Minato, the Yondaime Hokage, who is professed to have the fastest reflexes in the world, was only saved from Madara's vortex by using his Hiraishin no jutsu. Without it, he would've died.

"2) no one has ever found pains feeble body except for naruto (who was lucky) and so therefore madara's chances of finding the true pain are very very slim also madara most likley wont know that there is even a real pain this took even jiriya the whole battle to figure out and he has had more knowledge with the rinnegan considering he had pain as his student"

Madara, from the very start, has been manipulating Nagato. He had already planned out everything, using Nagato's obsession for peace as a promise to end all war. From this, it is easy to conclude that Madara would know every single secret about Akatsuki's members. I mean, if he can manipulate the leader of the most dangerous mercernary group from the start, it's not too hard to know the locations of said members.
And besides, Jiraiya knew Nagato for a year, tops. At this point, he didn't really know anything about the Rinnegan, aside from who last possessed it. He didn't even know that Pein could make multiple bodies.

"3) rinnegan are the most powerful ocular jutsu and so therefore mangekyo sharingan has no power over the rinnegan"

Wow, what a shoddy argument. I'd to see how a severely degraded Rinnegan is somehow superior to the most complex Sharingan in the world. I'd love to see how multiple bodies and affinities for six elements is somehow greater than being able to kill your opponent by giving them a full body blow-job, instantenous teleportation, hellfire that burns for a week, and an inpenetrable skeleton that protects the user from anything and everything. That that's only stuff we know from Madara. Do you realize how many Mangekyo's Madara has taken? He has the accumulation of perhaps several hundred Mangekyo's stored within his eyes. And Pein has a watered down Rinnegan. Please show me how Madara would lose.
Please tell me how. Character allegations mean nothing. No one in the Narutoverse apparently realizes how severely degraded the Rinnegan has gotten since its last user, and how that last user can't control it that well in the first place.

"yes he could of but if he was lying why wouldnt he just kill pain and start leading the akatasuzki and put moon's eye plan into action beacuse he didnt, it goes show that pain's abilities were highly respected by madara and most likely feared"
Because he needed someone to be the Jinchuuriki of the Gedo Mazo. It says it quite clearly. Since Pein died, Madara has admitted that he need Sasuke to replace Pein. The opener of the Gedo Mazo dies, and only very powerful people would be able to harness it. That is why he needed Pein, and needs Sasuke.

"let me quote PRETTY MUCH and im not quite sure what you mean by anything but if it means any technique that is in fact incorrect beacuse the only one chakra type: earth"
I don't even know what you mean. Your grammar is atrocious.

"Arguments: Pro. Pain is a game breaker he is considerd to be a god."
Correction:Pein considers himself a god.
"The Rinnegan's abilities are largely unknown,"
Not really.
"but it did permit the user to use all types of elemental chakra, and allowed Nagato to master every technique Jiraiya taught him at the age of ten."
This means? All it means is that Nagato had the Rinnegan, and he's powerful.
"According to Ibiki, the Rinnegan allows Nagato to use any technique he wishes."
Aside from all creator-specific techniques, bloodlines, kekkai genkai, and element mixture combos.

My opponent has not made one valid argument giving any reason why Pein would win.
Debate Round No. 3
brokenboy

Pro

CON: "Tell me, where did you get the information that Madara's special jutsu takes up any chakra whatsoever? You are only speculating without any type of evidence. Madara has used this jutsu multiple times, and has not shown any fatigue from it whatsoever."

naruto pedia--- http://naruto.wikia.com...
this goes to prove that he does in fact use chakra since under classification it has listed ninjutsu

also he is getting weaker by the minute he even said so himself that "i am mearly a shadow of my former self" he was hopeing that the move samsara of heavanly light pain would save to use it on him so that most likley means that his powers are fadeing

CON: "Secondly,we do know that Nagato cannot see chakra in his opponent's movements, like the Sharingan can. If he could, he would've been able to dodge Jiraiya's attacks for the most part, and none of his bodies would've been incapacitated by Jiraiya."

naruto pedia--- http://naruto.wikia.com...
this is an example of how little you know about the rinnegan and so i think that is why you seriously underestimate the power of the rinnegan

CON: "And even if Pein did know where Madara is coming from, he could not react quick enough to stop it."

the moment madara touches PREATA PATH his chakra will be drawn from his body This path's "Chakra Absorption" ability was primarily defensive, since it was capable of absorbing any ninjutsu-related technique, thereby nullifying its effect. This technique could also take the form of a barrier around its body, allowing it to absorb attacks from all directions. In addition to its defensive properties, this body's ability had also shown offensive capabilities, as it could absorb all the chakra out of any person that it touched.

if he touches DEVA PATH regarded as Pain's most powerful and cherished of the six Paths. Its main abilities revolved around gravity manipulation, allowing it to repel or attract objects or people allowing him to use shinra tensin which could repel madara away before madara finishes

if he touches the HUMAN PATH the human path only needs to touch madara once to drain madara's soul resulting his death

if madara were to touch the NARAKA PATH the naraka path would use the outer path technique the Naraka Path need only touch a person causing the Outer Path to appear before them. With the victim seemingly paralyzed, the King of Hell will unzip its mouth to release tendril-like arms and would draw out an apparition of the victim's life force energy in the form of an enlarged tongue.

the only two that do not have an abilitiy to protect themselves are the animal path and ASURA PATH although madara would have to solidify in order to teleport him meaning that asura path could execute a titanic shockwave causing imense damage to madara

and if madara were to find out the whereabouts of NAGATO feeble body it is said that since nagato has the ability to do everything that his paths can do so the worst thing for madara would be to go for his real body

another option that pain has to stop this technique is summoning konan the paper user who would cover all the paths in paper making it so that if madara touches them it will shed off causing an momentary opening for the paths to use their abilities to severly wound if not kill madara

this is the most important of madara's weakness is that during madara's technique it takes a while for the person to be drawn fully from existance it gives time for the other paths to make a move and supposedly interupt the technique
and cause damage to madara

CON: Wow, what a shoddy argument. I'd to see how a severely degraded Rinnegan is somehow superior to the most complex Sharingan in the world. I'd love to see how multiple bodies and affinities for six elements is somehow greater than being able to kill your opponent by giving them a full body blow-job, instantenous teleportation, hellfire that burns for a week, and an inpenetrable skeleton that protects the user from anything and everything.

first of all "being able to kill your opponent by giving them a full body blow-job"
umm........

seacondly it has never been shown that madara can use the ameratsu so therefore that statement is incorrect
now i do not know where your getting your information from but madara does not have a skull that can protect him from any thing and everything and if he does can you please send a link to where you got this information

seacondly there are many ways that the rinnegan are supirior mangekyo sharingan is powerful dont get me wrong but the rinnegan is the strongest ocular jutsu and even if it is degraded it still is quite powerfull and should be a match if not too much for madara to handle also madara's powers are fadeing and so his mangekyo will have degraded beacuse of the fact that madara has lived this long

CON: Do you realize how many Mangekyo's Madara has taken? He has the accumulation of perhaps several hundred Mangekyo's stored within his eyes.

the only person's eyes madara has ever taken are his brother's there have been no other records of him taking anyone elses eye's

CON: "According to Ibiki, the Rinnegan allows Nagato to use any technique he wishes."
Aside from all creator-specific techniques, bloodlines, kekkai genkai, and element mixture combos

it was not said whether or not he could not use creator specific techniques, kekkai genkai, and element mixture combo's ibiki simply said that it allowed him to use any technique so once again there is no proof that he cant

if you have proof behind any of your statements please send links

as i have just proven a the majority of my opponent's debate to be untrue and it seems as though my opponent was not well informed on the characters and their abilities there are none of my opponents topics still standing

i strongly urge voters to vote PRO

i would like to thank my opponent for defending his character quite well and look forward to hearing his thoughts in his next response
Atheism

Con

"naruto pedia--- http://naruto.wikia.com......
this goes to prove that he does in fact use chakra since under classification it has listed ninjutsu"
It does not specify that it uses immesnse chakra, or enough to drain Madara's. Negated.

"also he is getting weaker by the minute he even said so himself that "i am mearly a shadow of my former self"
That doesn't mean he is getting weaker by the minute. It just means that he isn't as strong as he used to be. No where in that sentence does it imply he is getting weaker.

"he was hopeing that the move samsara of heavanly light pain would save to use it on him so that most likley means that his powers are fadeing"
Uh, no. I'd love to see where Madara says this, thinks this, or implies this.

"naruto pedia--- http://naruto.wikia.com......
this is an example of how little you know about the rinnegan and so i think that is why you seriously underestimate the power of the rinnegan"
Point taken. Still, my other arguments remain.

"the moment madara touches PREATA PATH his chakra will be drawn from his body This path's "Chakra Absorption" ability was primarily defensive, since it was capable of absorbing any ninjutsu-related technique, thereby nullifying its effect. This technique could also take the form of a barrier around its body, allowing it to absorb attacks from all directions. In addition to its defensive properties, this body's ability had also shown offensive capabilities, as it could absorb all the chakra out of any person that it touched."
Incorrect. The Preta Path, when absorbing Chakra with intent, I.E. attacking, he must grab the opponent, not the other way around. Aside from that, Madara can materialize and use non ninjutsu things, I.E. Genjutsu, Kenjutsu, Summoning, a weapon.

"if he touches DEVA PATH regarded as Pain's most powerful and cherished of the six Paths. Its main abilities revolved around gravity manipulation, allowing it to repel or attract objects or people allowing him to use shinra tensin which could repel madara away before madara finishes"
Madara can just teleport to the Deva Path again before the five seconds needed are up. Aside from that, Pein needs to point in the direction of the foe, since Madara has a full orientation of where he is at all times during the technique, he can just teleport behind the Deva Path and suck him in, while Pein will be confused. The Rinnegan only detects chakra when it sees it. Since Pein's paths will be on the surface (presumably), Madara can go underground, where the Pein's can't see him, and pop up, sucking the paths away.

"if he touches the HUMAN PATH the human path only needs to touch madara once to drain madara's soul resulting his death"
Use his Space-Time ninjutsu, appear behind him, throw a shuriken. If that fails, Summon something, like the Kyuubi or one of the sealed Bijuu.

"if madara were to touch the NARAKA PATH the naraka path would use the outer path technique the Naraka Path need only touch a person causing the Outer Path to appear before them. With the victim seemingly paralyzed, the King of Hell will unzip its mouth to release tendril-like arms and would draw out an apparition of the victim's life force energy in the form of an enlarged tongue."
Same as above.

"the only two that do not have an abilitiy to protect themselves are the animal path and ASURA PATH although madara would have to solidify in order to teleport him meaning that asura path could execute a titanic shockwave causing imense damage to madara"
A shockwave? Really? Did my argument about how Madara's ninjutsu takes a negligible amount of his chakra not get to you? Besides, when Madara appears, he can fake an attack, like he did beforewhen fighting Fu(Danzo's subordinates)

"and if madara were to find out the whereabouts of NAGATO feeble body it is said that since nagato has the ability to do everything that his paths can do so the worst thing for madara would be to go for his real body"
Um, what? When did this happen? I've never seen the real Nagato use one of the powers his fake bodies has.
Since he's been chained to the Gedo Mazo, he forfeited his powers to the fake bodies.

"another option that pain has to stop this technique is summoning konan the paper user who would cover all the paths in paper making it so that if madara touches them it will shed off causing an momentary opening for the paths to use their abilities to severly wound if not kill madara"
We're not talking about Konan. Fail.

"this is the most important of madara's weakness is that during madara's technique it takes a while for the person to be drawn fully from existance it gives time for the other paths to make a move and supposedly interupt the technique
and cause damage to madara"
Madara doesn't need time to solidify. In the fight between Fu and co., it took less than a second for him to solidify.

"first of all "being able to kill your opponent by giving them a full body blow-job"
umm........"
Still haven't negated it.

"seacondly it has never been shown that madara can use the ameratsu so therefore that statement is incorrect"
Argument from ignorance fallacy. When Itachi died, he imbued his Mangekyo Sharingan within Sasuke, giving him Itachi's (Mangekyo) powers. Since Madara can transplant Sharingan's, and has been doing so, it stands to reason he gains the powers of whatever Sharingan he possesses.

"now i do not know where your getting your information from but madara does not have a skull that can protect him from any thing and everything and if he does can you please send a link to where you got this information"
Yes, he does. Susanoo. http://naruto.wikia.com...

"seacondly there are many ways that the rinnegan are supirior mangekyo sharingan is powerful dont get me wrong but the rinnegan is the strongest ocular jutsu and even if it is degraded it still is quite powerfull and should be a match if not too much for madara to handle also madara's powers are fadeing and so his mangekyo will have degraded beacuse of the fact that madara has lived this long"
No, it will not be. The Original Sage made the moon. Pein made a rock less than a tenth of that.
Aside from that, Madara's Mangekyo is still as strong as ever, because he took his brother's eyes, giving him the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. Aside from that, it has been shown in the Manga that Madara takes Sharingans. I would post a picture, but the publishers changed their stance ononline- Manga viewing, so...

Anyways, I disproved all my opponent's rebuttals, and he has left several of my arguments still standing. Futhermore, he has yet to actually affirm why Pein would win.
Resolution negated, vote Con.
Debate Round No. 4
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Madara_FTMFW 5 years ago
Madara_FTMFW
This debate is booby trapped. There are simply too many unknown variables about madara to effeciently debate the claim that pein could defeat him.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Atheism 6 years ago
Atheism
brokenboyAtheismTied
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Vote Placed by brokenboy 6 years ago
brokenboy
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GeorgeCarlinWorshipper
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