The Instigator
jackgilbert
Pro (for)
Winning
14 Points
The Contender
alitar
Con (against)
Losing
6 Points

is God real?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/13/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 week ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,244 times Debate No: 118178
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (149)
Votes (4)

 

jackgilbert

Pro

The first thing atheists tell me when I say that God exists is that no one can prove it. This is partially correct because we cannot see physical signs of him. That does not mean however that there aren't good arguments for him. I will give a few of them here.
The first is the argument from design. When you look at the world around us, You see the complexity of it. Take DNA. It contains the amount of information equivalent to 1000 sets of Encyclopedia Britannica's put together. Every life form on this earth has them. Without a God, In the equation, Then it all must have come from nothing. But if it takes a very smart person-years to put together even one, Then wouldn't there have to be an even more intelligent person to put together 1000 sets of encyclopedia's in the first one-celled animal. Or did it all just come together from an explosion, Also known as the big bang? If so, That is an awful lot to be arranged perfectly from a single explosion. As a matter of fact here are some probabilities of it coming together from actual material.
1. The chance of life forming from non-life is 1 in 10 to the 40, 000th power. That is 10 with 40, 000 zeros after it
Source: https://www. Scienceforums. Net/
Source: www. Ideacenter. Org/contentmgr/showdetails. Php/id/740

2. The chance of the universe coming into existence by chance is 1 in 400 quadrillion
Source: https://blogs. Plos. Org/

3. The chance of a simple protein coming from dead matter is 1 in 1. 28 with 10, 175 zeros after it
Source: http://www. Creationstudies. Org/

4. The chance of the earth by itself coming into existence from nothing is 1 in 700 quintillion
Source: https://answersingenesis. Org/

5. "The chance of evolution occurring is equivalent to the chance of a blindfolded person throwing a pebble into outerspace, Knocking down a satellite that then crashes down on a target on a van on a highway"
Even in a billion years, That's never going to happen
Source: https://answersingenesis. Org/

Another thing about evolution. What about mutualism? Mutualism, Is a relationship between two organisms where both benefit. An example of this is between the oriental sweetlips and the blue streak wrasse. The Oriental sweetlips is one of the few fish that has teeth. However it must get them cleaned otherwise they would rot and fall out. So, The blue streak wrasse cleans the oriental sweetlips teeth by eating all of the plaque on it. This gives the blue streak wrasse a good meal, And at the same time, The oriental sweetlips gets its teeth cleaned, Thus causing both to benefit. Evolution states that one life form came into existence from dead matter. This process by itself is impossible but that is aside the point. For now let's just say it happened. That life form reproduced creating every species of animals we see today. In order for evolution to be true, This case of mutualism would have to have come across by chance. At some point in time evolutionists would say that the sweetlips probably had no teeth but in a number of generations, Teeth began to form. In order for these teeth not to rot, The sweetlips would have to develop the instinct to seek out a fish to clean it's teeth. This instinct would have to develop at EXACTLY THE SAME TIME THE TEETH EVOLVED. But that's not enough. At the exact time these instincts evolved, The blue streak wrasse would have to INDEPENDENTLY decide to swim in the sweetlips mouth without the fear of being eaten. Remember, If these don't happen at the exact same time, The process won't work. That is just one of millions of examples of mutualism. There are just too many of these happy coincidences for evolution to be possible if DNA is that complicated, Can you even imagine the rest of the world? How can it be chance? How can it all come from an explosion that I don't even believe to be possible. Nothing cannot produce something so I don't see how this explosion could have occurred. This world calls for an intelligent designer, Not chance.
My second argument is the argument from motion. According to Isaac Newton's first law of motion everything that is in motion will stay in motion until acted on by another force. At the same time, Nothing will ever be in motion until acted on by another force. In other words if anything is in motion, There must be a force that causes it to do so. This law completely contradicts the idea that there is no God. You see, Everything in this world is in motion. Because nothing can set itself in motion, There must be an outside force that is the result of all motion today. Because God is all powerful he can do anything and therefore does not need to be set in motion and is the only thing that can be the root cause of all motion today. Otherwise, Isaac Newton is wrong.
My third argument. How does matter arise to make this whole scenario possible in the first place? The big bang is bound by some very important scientific laws. The law of conservation of energy, The law of conservation of mass, The law of biogenesis, And Newton's first law of motion. All 4 of these scientific laws and the big bang cannot be true at the same time because they are contradictory. The Big bang is believed to be the result of all energy and mass but the law of conservation of mass says that matter cannot be created or destroyed. You believe in the big bang theory but the Big bang itself is a theory and according to the scientific method, A scientific law has so much more credibility then a theory. So, In this case, In order to believe in the big bang theory, You are forced to rely on the LEAST reliable data while ignoring the MOST reliable data. Not good scientific practice.
My third argument is the cosmological argument. Here is what it states:
P1 everything that exists has a cause of existence
P2 Because the universe exists, It must have a cause of existence
P3 Because nothing cannot produce something, That cause must be an outside force
P4 That outside force is God
P5 God created the universe
C God exists
I will probably get lots of questions on this particular argument which I will answer in the next round.
alitar

Con

Hello pro,

I will start of by saying that yes the chances of all these things happening does seem very small but, You have to remember the Universe is 13. 8 billion years old. For greater than half that time life had a chance to evolve. It is like" The chance of evolution occurring is equivalent to the chance of a blindfolded person throwing a pebble into outerspace, Knocking down a satellite that then crashes down on a target on a van on a highway" but that man has billions of tries to do so.

My second question to you is if god exists why doesn't he help us? He didn't stop the Holocaust, 9/11, Rwandan genocide, Rape, Murder, Slavery. This god also is against LGBTQ rights so is he really as moral as you believe.

Thank you
Con

(I would like to say that I respect your beliefs and don't mean to offend you)
Debate Round No. 1
jackgilbert

Pro

Thank you con for your response. I will do my best to go over your arguments and defend my case.

The chance of life forming is a little more complicated than spinning a Russian roulette wheel over and over again til it goes your way. In other words, There isn't just one improbable thing that has to happen for life to form. There are many events that have to happen in sequence for life to arise spontaneously. The temperature, The moisture, The atmosphere, The arrangement of chemicals, The density, And many other conditions have to be perfect for a life form to arise. They must all be perfect at exactly the same time. If even one of them is a tad off, The process won't work. Now remember, In order for life to continue after the first one, It would have to reproduce. This is where the main problem comes in. There is a lot of things a cell must have in order to reproduce. In fact, The life form people are thinking of probably couldn't reproduce unless it had the following things: DNA, Plasma membrane, Ribosomes, A nucleus, Centrioles, Chromosomes, All of which you are assuming functions properly, Works together, And can perform meiosis, Mitosis, And protein synthesis which are essential in asexual reproduction. This is a little more complex than it sounds. Fun fact, Not even the smartest scientists in the world have come even close to creating something half the complexity as this. They haven't even created something remotely to resemble the simplest protein. The entire process of reproduction is beyond the scope of this debate but we both agree it is complicated. It is far too complicated to arise in such a short amount of time. That is, Before the life form dies. Can this really form spontaneously? All of these nearly impossible events must occur in the perfect order at exactly the same time. A simple life form that can reproduce is a little more than a ball of cytoplasm. It is a working machine that has incredible complexity and cannot be chance.

You said that if God is all good and all powerful, Why does evil exist. There is a simple one word answer. Free will. When God created us he created us with the ability to choose. When mankind sinned, Evil was brought into the world. If God were to put an end to the evil things mankind is doing, It would simply be a violation of our free will. We chose to sin, And thus, Sin must be punished. That is why God sent his Son to die for us and pay the penalty for our sins.

I mentioned a few other arguments in the first round that would lead you to the conclusion that there is a God. In your next argument, Could you please address those?

I look forward to your response.
alitar

Con

Hello Pro,

1. You said that god caused the Big Bang. This is not true, It is caused by quantum fluctuation https://en. Wikipedia. Org/wiki/Big_Bang? Scrlybrkr=67e98caa#Cause. Newton's laws break down at the quantum level. Come on man! Do some research before you make these claims.

2. Your process of life coming into being is flawed to no end. We have proof of evolution; do you know how close your DNA is to a ape. 99% you are 99% ape DNA. The reason all this happened is that the animals that didn't evolve beneficial traits DIED. Look, You keep pointing out the unlikeliness of life but this is all explained by natural selection not god.

3. If your god is all knowing and all powerful then how can we have free will. He knew what we were going to do with it and thus we have a fated action. Free will can only be real if we can do something else. If god knows what we are going to do in the future and god is never wrong then we can never do anything then what god sees in our future.

3 1/2. Also in your previous bible god is seen interning all the time so much for free will.
Debate Round No. 2
jackgilbert

Pro

1. Here, You are simply putting words in my mouth. I never said God caused the big bang. I said (probably in one of my other debates) that the big bang does not refute the idea of God because God could have used the big bang to create the world. So here you are literally arguing a point that I didn't even make. You said that quantum fluctuations caused the big bang. Quantum fluctuations are a point change in the energy of a volume in space. But if there was once nothing, Than where is the energy to make quantum fluctuations possible? Quantum fluctuations can't come from nothing. They need energy to occur. Thus, The creation of this entire universe and everything in it from quantum fluctuations is impossible.

2. In this section, You are getting abiogenesis and evolution mixed up. Abiogenesis is the theory of how life started in the first place. Evolution is the theory of what happened after life began. That is, How one life form resulted in billions of species. In order for God not to exist, Both abiogenesis and evolution have to have happened. I argued that the process of abiogenesis is not true and is inconsistent with all we know about life. You claim that the unlikeliness of life forming is explained through natural selection. This is not true however. Natural selection is an attempt to explain evolution, Not abiogenesis. It does not explain how life came to exist in the first place.
Your point that natural selection explaining abiogenesis is simply not true because evolution and abiogenesis are not the same thing.

In addition to this, Even if evolution were true, It doesn't necessarily refute the idea of God. Why? Because God could have very well created all life through evolution. It could be part of his intelligent design. Do I believe in evolution? No, Because there is quite a bit of evidence against it. But my point is, Beliefs like the big bang and evolution don't necessarily disprove God.

3. This is one of those questions that have been asked over and over again. The answer is still the same and although I would love to go into it, That is not this debate is about. The topic is titled, "is God real? " All we are arguing is whether or not a God exists. Whether that is the Christian, Islamic, Buddhistic, Or Roman God is irrelevant to this debate. All we are arguing is whether or not a God exists. Let's save this topic for another debate.

3 1/2. Same as above

I would like to argue one last thing. Your entire case against God is invalid and here is why. You haven't presented a plausible alternative to how the universe was created. You briefly mentioned evolution but haven't really backed it up with any real evidence. You haven't addressed my case against abiogenesis which is the base of all atheistic beliefs for the origin of life. Basically, You have claimed that God is not real, But have not presented an alternative explanation to how the universe came to exist. In debate, We call that a Prima Facie and they are invalid every single time.

Here is a list of my unaddressed points in this debate:

1. The cosmological argument and how it proves God.
2. Newton's first law of motion and how it proves God.
3. How intelligent design proves God.
4. Why the theory of abiogenesis is inconsistent with all we know about life.

I look forward to your response.
alitar

Con

I'm done,

You obviously won't believe any of my arguments. I give up you win. If you think that all scientist and atheist are wrong and
you are right then fine. Have fun yelling in your echo chamber. Nothing you said proves god and intelligent design is just plain wrong. You are wrong and if you don't believe me ok.

Bye
Debate Round No. 3
jackgilbert

Pro

Yes, I won't believe your case against my arguments because they aren't my arguments. Obviously, If I did believe your arguments I wouldn't believe in God which means this debate would never have existed in the first place. I will however address your one point for evolution.

"do you know how close your DNA is to a ape. 99% you are 99% ape DNA"
When a simple google search disproves your point you need to re-evaluate sir.

I am interested in debating the free will topic, So if you are interested, Challenge me.
alitar

Con

Hi Pro,

Nah you can just put your arguments out to talk to the voters. I'm not going to argue now.
Debate Round No. 4
jackgilbert

Pro

sounds good. Do you believe that the idea of our free will and God's omnipotence are contradictory?
alitar

Con

Hi Pro,

Kinda, I'm no theologian so maybe theres an explanation but I couldn't find any satisfactory answers while searching.
Debate Round No. 5
149 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Nartnod7875 5 hours ago
Nartnod7875
jackgilbert
Cool. Looking forward to it.
Posted by jackgilbert 5 hours ago
jackgilbert
I can but the explanation is a little more in depth. I don't have time today to address it but I will.
Posted by Nartnod7875 5 hours ago
Nartnod7875
How about Daosim or Confucianism?
Posted by Nartnod7875 6 hours ago
Nartnod7875
jackgilbert
Can you take Buddhism into account with your explanation?
Posted by jackgilbert 6 hours ago
jackgilbert
Good question, And my answer may or may not be satisfactory. Religions that aren't Christianity are created by people who are power hungry. Take Mormanism for example. It was all created by a man named Joseph Smith and he made up a ton of nonsense in order to gain power, Which he did. This religion was based off of Christianity. But People actually believed him even though what he was teaching was false.
Posted by alitar 7 hours ago
alitar
Question Jack,

If the Bible is the one true religion then how come others exist. Why didn't god speak to them?

Thanks
Alitar
Posted by jackgilbert 14 hours ago
jackgilbert
I am willing to let you give me Bible verses but give them one at a time. The past 5 that you have given me I addressed, And then never heard from you about them again. I have a feeling these next ones are going to be the same. Here's what happens. You give a few questionable Bible verses, I address them, And then you go on a rant on how God is immoral, And how there are so many contradictions in the Bible.

In terms of the billion supernatural miracles, They are in fact miracles. You start with nothing and then get something. That's the first miracles, Something coming from nothing. People constantly use the argument of quantum fluctuations which is a point change in the energy in a certain blocks of space. But you need energy in order for quantum fluctuations to occur. But if there was once nothing, Then quantum fluctuations are impossible.

In terms of me having loved ones/friends it is rather silly that you continue to argue this. You are making yourself look dumb by arguing something you know nothing about. I have family members who would die for me right now, I have really close friends that would die for me right now and I have many people at my church that I am really close with and would die for me right now. In addition, You have said this to literally every single person you have debated on this website. I have a very hard time believing that all of us are wrong about our own lives and you are right even though you know none of us personally. Prove to me otherwise. Good luck!
Posted by backwardseden 23 hours ago
backwardseden
Who said we are here by "miracles"? Only you. Did it ever dawn on you that we are here naturally? Or here's the attention grabber for yah. . . Could have been 2 gods, 17 gods, 1, 246 gods, Trillions of gods. Or the best part in which is more likely since you don't know rather than inventing the excuse of "I'm an utterly stupid person and since I don't have the answer for anything on this scum sucking planet and since I am all alone and since nobody loves or cares about me and since I hate my life and think negatively all the time with nothing positive going on, I'm going to believe in an invisible God without proof of anything and say therefore God. " You see, I happen to be educated, A lot smarter, By far more intelligent than you will ---ever--- be, And I know a lot more about YOUR God, Bible and religion that YOU ---ever--- will, And I have the ability to think, Reason, Rationalize, Use common sense, And use logic whereas with you, Your god and bible none is required. Also with ---every--- scientist of merit they will ---always--- say "I---don't---know". That in truth is your answer as well. Because you don't know. You don't have the foggiest clue. All you know how to do for the umteenth time is invent excuses. As long as you keep on doing that, Especially without any evidence to support your ridiculous claims, You will ---always---, No exceptions, Continue to have no genuine friends or loved ones. So if you wish to keep to doing what you are doing, Then you will die alone and be miserable. You think I can't read you? Guess again.
"God exists and he created the Heavens and the earth? " You don't even know what YOUR God is. There's no tests, Declarations, Demonstrations for what your god is. WHAT IS GOD?
Here's another attention grabber. . . Say by some miracle your God is proven. So what? He's completely immoral and not worthy of belief. He has to answer for his crimes especially for murdering babies and children and pregnant women. NOBODY had to die!
Posted by backwardseden 23 hours ago
backwardseden
"If you don't give me the Bible verses I can't defend my case. " See? That's why you have no genuine friends or loved ones and don't say that you do. With your intelligence ratio, Everyone unless they are as illiterate, Unedumacated, Uncultivated, Uncivilized, Undernourished, Unclean, Unmannered, Ungunned, Artless, Etc etc etc that is below you and they would have to be glued to the highchair for their entire lives if that was to happen, Would no doubt would walk away from you.
That is such a fatalistic stupid statement made by a remarkably rectangle trying to fit into a circle stupid person. I gave you plenty of verses with videos to back up those verses in which you have not watched. Yeah, Remember those Christ verses in which I proved unto you that you are not a Christian because you have not abandoned your family in favor of your Christ because you cannot follow what your Christ says? Yeppers, I gave unto you that video not once, But twice. I also gave unto you verses in which showed unto you 7 points of mistranslations in a supposed perfect book in which there should be ONE translation for EVERYONE to avoid confusion - especially from you as YOUR god would NEVER use text as a form of communication, The worst form of communication possible, Namely the bible. What a true imbecile your storybook God was. So Your bible is a complete failure in spite of at least 1, 000 contradictions and inconsistencies.
Be that as it may YOU do not require ANY verses as I gave you plenty of other reasons without using ANY verses to NOT believe in YOUR god, NOT ever FOR any reason. Yet for a 4ith time you simpleton arrogant prick you still have yet to state WHY BELIEVE? Since this is the 4th time, And since you have not answered, Your time is up. You had your chance. You blew it. You have no answer because YOU cannot think of an answer. Neither can any supposed Christian. That's because there is no answer.
Whoever said that we are here by a "billion supernatural miracles"?
Posted by jackgilbert 1 day ago
jackgilbert
You tell me, Does it make more sense to believe we are here by a billion supernatural miracles, Or by one miracle and that is that God exists and he created the Heavens and the earth?
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by JimShady 5 days ago
JimShady
jackgilbertalitarTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Hello, good debate. I'll be really concise with this vote. Conduct point goes to jackgilbert, because alitar starts to pick up a hostile tone in Round 2. Also, he gives up, which is not respectful to his opponent or the audience. Pro was also a little mean, but Con was meaner in my opinion. S/G is tied, as well as sources. Both used questionable sources, Wikipedia and answersingenesis (uh...) . As for Convincing Arguments, jackgilbert auto-wins these 3 points for the alitar concession. However, I think both sides had some good arguments regardless. The argument from design and its probabilities were stated well, as was his Newton law argument. Con made some good comebacks with the 99% DNA similiarity stat and the breakdown of Newtonian physics at the quantum level. While both sides put up honorable arguments, in the end this is a technical win for jackgilbert. Good job to both sides, better job to Pro.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 1 week ago
dsjpk5
jackgilbertalitarTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Concession.
Vote Placed by tejretics 1 week ago
tejretics
jackgilbertalitarTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con concedes.
Vote Placed by backwardseden 1 week ago
backwardseden
jackgilbertalitarTied
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Reasons for voting decision: J.G.'s sources are unreliable. They are not proofs because they cannot be proven as there is nothing to compare them to. So his entire debate falls apart. Nobody has ever been able to prove God. J.G. is no exception. He's used the same old tired arguments time and time again. They've all been debunked by others time and time again. Add Con to the mix.