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v3rd3_fiv3r
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The Contender
WeavingBird1917
Pro (for)
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is Gospel words of god ??

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/23/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 514 times Debate No: 80031
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (13)
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v3rd3_fiv3r

Con

In the name of Allah the Merciful
Brothers sisters at the outset I want to greet you a greeting of Islam: Peace be upon you, but after
As noted, the subject of this debate is whether the Gospel is the word of God ??
I believe that the Bible is not the Word of God, and this is based on several data, I will try to show in this debate.
In the fourth Brothers and sisters, I hope that you will be open-minded, and, do not read fanatically for your beliefs
And Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds
WeavingBird1917

Pro

I accept this debate. I hope this debate will be thoughtful and interesting and will make people consider the truth. I will be talking about the Christian Bible.

By Gospel, I am assuming you are referring to the whole Bible and not just the Gospels as you said "I believe the Bible is not the Word of God." The Gospels are the 4 books that recorded the life of Jesus. The Bible made out of the Canons, which consists of 39 books from the Old Testament and 27 books from the New Testament. The Canons are accepted as God's genuine Word. The Gospels are also included in these books.

The Bible is believed to be God-breathed. It describes the origin of man and our history. It describes his will. It tells us how to live life to the fullest and tells us who we really are and our purpose. God's Word can be a refuge in times of sorrow and it is a guideline on how to live life.

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16)
Debate Round No. 1
v3rd3_fiv3r

Con

In the name of God the Merciful
Yes my brother, I am talking about the Bible, unfortunately I erred expression, i want to say that the Bible was the Word of God ??
I'll start my brother, from a famous saying, which is that
"Any text shall be holy, if he proved Add the word only to him, the full text drops"
I want in the first round practice this rule, some of the verses of the bible
Let's start with the basis of Christianity, Trinity
You know my brother, he's in your book, there is no impact the so-called Trinity
And perhaps the closest verse, is the verse
" For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 John 5:7 / Book of King James
But You know my brother, he's in the Bible that I read does not exist to this verse, is not a book that I have the word of God ... i read RSV
The same for many verses, for example the story of asantion Mark 16:16- 19
i repeat my brother i haven't this verses in my bible ... why?? is not the words of god??? imagine brother, the whole story was deleted, why????
i will help you brother to answer, because your scholars (32) Supported by (50) of the communities, that all this is a fabrication and falsification and distortion.
Add to this verse that all Christians likes to use, John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." i wana tel you something .. my brother this verse has changed in my book, why ??? and why the word begotten dont exist in my book ??
i read the version 1952 i think ... but in the version of 1971 these verses returned
I want to ask you, what logic you want to prove that this speech is the word of God, and it is changing every day, they manipulating you .. Is the Word of God changed ??? of course not.
My dear brother, logic says that if there is a distorted one word, the whole text drops. so for me all the bible drops
WeavingBird1917

Pro

Thank you for your argument. I am having some trouble understanding what you mean. For example:

1. "You know my brother, he's in your book, there is no impact the so-called Trinity"
- Firstly, who are you referring to?
- Secondly, I don't understand what you mean by "there is no impact the so-called Trinity."

I assume that what you are saying is that the John 5:7 in the KJV is different to the RSV's version. Firstly, that verse does not belong to John 5:7, it belongs to 1 John 5:7. Let's look into this more. I compare 1 John 5:7-8 from 2 different Bible versions. These are the differences:

KJV: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

RSV: And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8 There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree."

Firstly, does the meaning of the passage change? Yes, that passage is illegitimately there, but it it simply acknowledging the presence of the Father, Word and Holy Spirit. I won't go into explaining in detail how it happened, but you can check the link at the bottom if you want to read more. I'm sure everyone heard the verse "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Even if that verse was false/genuine, we still know that the Word was God, as said on the first verse of John.

You said: "i will help you brother to answer, because your scholars (32) Supported by (50) of the communities, that all this is a fabrication and falsification and distortion."

Well let me ask you this - What is there to fabricate or distort in that verse? As I pointed out, it doesn't change the meaning of the verse at all. The King James version was written in the 1600s. Most people now use the NIV, which correctly removes the error.

The Word of God is not changing everyday. Our language is changing every day. It is just being rewritten so that we can understand it. If we were to read the original Kings James Version, or the original Greek scriptures, we would be mislead. I will give you an example why:

- In the King's James Version, God tells Adam and Eve to "replenish" the world. This leads us to think that the world was inhabited before. What replenish meant back then was "to fill completely", not "to refill."
- Jesus tells people to pray in the "closet." Does this mean you should pray in the closet? What it meant was a secret room or storage room."
- Elizabeth and Mary were said to be "cousins." What that actually meant is someone from the same area.

You can check more in the link below. Do you see now why it is crucial to rewrite the Bible? Not for falsification or distortion, but so we can understand it! You have to realize that the Bible is a few thousand years old- you can't look at a 100 year old Bible and assume that the sentence is distorted because t doesn't make sense. It is because of the changes in the English language over time!

*ARGUMENTS*

Why the Bible is written by God:

1) Prophecies: There were over 300 manuscripts predicting the arrival of Jesus Christ. These manuscript were written before the birth Jesus Christ which could only mean that they were true. And how do you know the prophecies were fulfilled? Read number 2.

2) Eyewitness accounts: Many other manuscripts have been found that wrote eyewitness accounts on Jesus performing miracles. I have included a link below about a manuscript recently discovered that writes about Jesus performing miracles. This shows that the 300+ prophecies were fulfilled.
http://worldnewsdailyreport.com...

3) Archaeological evidence: Archaeological evidence supports the Bible. Many unbelievers tried disproving the Bible, only to have failed. All archaeological findings supports the bible, none can disprove it. Read some here: http://www.equip.org...

4) Scientific accuracy: The Bible stated that God "sits in the circle of the Earth" long before people realized that the Earth wasn't flat. There are also several other theories that agree with the Bible. One of these theories is the famous Big Bang Theory. The Big Bang states that the universe expanded from a single point, called singularity. At singularity, all laws of physics break down. This is supported by the Biblical view which states that God created the heavens and the Earth. Scientists have no clue what was before singularity. The Bible clearly stands by what it has been saying even before the Big Bang Theory was created.

5) Consistent information: The Bible consists of 66 books. Most of these books came from different locations ranging from Asia, Europe and Africa. The Bible is also written over a long time scale. Despite all these factors, the Bible is consistent and never contradicts itself. This I think, is the biggest proof that the Bible is God-breathed. So many authors from so many locations from so different times, all fitting together perfectly, all with the same motives. This is impossible without the supervision of God. Check the map here: http://www.biblestudy.org...

"Contrast this with the Islamic Koran. It was compiled by one individual, Zaid bin Thabit, under the guidance of Mohammed's father-in-law, Abu-Bekr. Then in A.D. 650, a group of Arab scholars produced a unified version and destroyed all variant copies to preserve the unity of the Koran. The Bible was unified from the time of its writing. The Koran had to be unified through the editing of men." http://www.gotquestions.org...

*Conclusion*
I hope I have cleared your doubts in your previous argument. I urge you to read the whole thing thoroughly with an open mind. Now on to round 3!

https://www.chick.com...
http://www.ucg.org...
http://www.wrestedscriptures.com...
http://www.gotquestions.org...
Debate Round No. 2
v3rd3_fiv3r

Con

First brother did not answer any convalesce set in the round, with the exception of 1 John 5: 7, and this is something I was sure of it.
Eight brother did not read carefully, because if he read well he found that I did not misquote.
My dear brother, I do not need those who explain to me what is clear, the problem here in King James Version we found that
" For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 John 5:7
i wana you to find this verse in the RSV, i repeat 1John 5:7 not 1John 5:8 as you have done in the previous round, i wana find that these three are one in my version ... this not a difference in langage my brother , this is a meaning they delete it.
Then how can a story deleted ??? Is change language delete the the whole story? of course not.
You lie to yourself brother, not to me.
We Muslims our approach, to find out that the book was from God is :
God say in the holly Quran :"Do they not then consider the Qur'an carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradictions." 4 : 82
and unfortunately I found in it many contradictions, and my mind does not allow me to accept it.
i quote from your 2nd round you said : "Why the Bible is written by God:" Lol brother i have ever ever ever find a bible and found the author god ( astaghfiro lahe ).
In any way, I will not continue to comment on what was said by brother, i will continue in my point of vue soo:
first brother i wanna you to open your book (bible) at Genesis 19:30-38

Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children"as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let"s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father."
33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I slept with my father. Let"s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father." 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
36 So both of Lot"s daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab[a]; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi[b]; he is the father of the Ammonites[c] of today.

You are kidding me ?? You want to tell me that this word of God ??
Eight prophets, my brother, are role models for us and are supervised creation, and not to commit adultery with his two daughters.
Stay in the same chapter, open Genesis 35:22

"While Israel was living in that region, Reuben went in and slept with his father"s concubine Bilhah, and Israel heard of it.
Jacob had twelve sons:"

You are kidding me ?? You want to tell me that this word of God ??
stay stay in this chapter, open Genesis 38
You are kidding me ?? what's thissss ???
i will finish by this Genesis 21-1 ..

"And the Lord visited Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did unto Sarah as he had spoken...."

You are kidding me ?? what's thissss ??? God visited sarah and give here a child !!!!! . Can not in any way that this nonsense is the Word of God.
you know what ... i will add other verses

"The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother:
3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.
4 And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.
5 And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours,
6 Which were clothed with blue, captains and rulers, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding upon horses.
7 Thus she committed her whoredoms with them, with all them that were the chosen men of Assyria, and with all on whom she doted: with all their idols she defiled herself.
8 Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her.
9 Wherefore I have delivered her into the hand of her lovers, into the hand of the Assyrians, upon whom she doted.
10 These discovered her nakedness: they took her sons and her daughters, and slew her with the sword: and she became famous among women; for they had executed judgment upon her.
11 And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms.
12 She doted upon the Assyrians her neighbours, captains and rulers clothed most gorgeously, horsemen riding upon horses, all of them desirable young men.
13 Then I saw that she was defiled, that they took both one way,
14 And that she increased her whoredoms: for when she saw men pourtrayed upon the wall, the images of the Chaldeans pourtrayed with vermilion,
15 Girded with girdles upon their loins, exceeding in dyed attire upon their heads, all of them princes to look to, after the manner of the Babylonians of Chaldea, the land of their nativity:
16 And as soon as she saw them with her eyes, she doted upon them, and sent messengers unto them into Chaldea.
17 And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.
18 So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister.
19 Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.
20 For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.
21 Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.
22 Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;
23 The Babylonians, and all the Chaldeans, Pekod, and Shoa, and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them: all of them desirable young men, captains and rulers, great lords and renowned, all of them riding upon horses.
24 And they shall come against thee with chariots, wagons, and wheels, and with an assembly of people, which shall set against thee buckler and shield and helmet round about: and I will set judgment before them, and they shall judge thee according to their judgments...." Ezekiel 23

You are kidding me ?? You want to tell me that this word of God ??
I want here to challenge brother, that he read this chapter on his little sister, mother or with family, can you?? i don't think so.
Word of the Lord can not read it on the family, what is this logic that u talking ??
WeavingBird1917

Pro

Thank you my opponent for writing that detailed response. I do apologize for failing to respond to some of your contentions, as it was cut off in the "show previous arguments" section in the "Post My Argument" page

Firstly, I would like to make it clear that the Bible was inspired by God, "God-breathed", not directly written by God. My previous statement "God written the Bible" might have made that seem unclear.

My opponent has failed to read through my explanation about the error in 1 John 5:7 in the KJV properly. He asks "Then how can a story deleted ??? Is change language delete the the whole story?" My previous answer was "Yes, that passage is illegitimately there." He has clearly shown that he misread my explanation. I previously explained that it was illegitimately there, which is why it wasn't included in other versions. If I remembered correctly, I also specified a link which explained how the error taken place.

But the true question concerning the error is: Does it change the true message that the passage was trying to deliver? The answer is no. Even if that line was removed, John 1:1 already states that "The Word was God". My opponent said that the whole story was deleted. This is just a false statement and a distortion of words! The single incorrect line was simply removed. There are over 50 versions of the Bible. This error only occurred in the King James Version, and it was quickly realized by the community.

Firstly, I want to explain that the Bible isn't just fictional literacy, but it is taken by many scholars as a historical document. My opponent has beautifully illustrated this point in his arguments. One of the criteria used by scholars for determining the reliability of a document is the "criterion of embarrassment." The criterion of embarrassment show the authenticity of scriptures, as said by John P. Meier, "would have embarrassed or created difficulty for the early Church." If the Bible was indeed a propaganda that tried to make everything perfect, and left out all the bad things, it would certainly be unrealistic. Since it is expected that the writers of the Bible would not have written anything that would embarrass them, any embarrassing reports is accurate, according to this criteria. The Bible is certainly inspired by God, as no human would write something that "would have embarrassed or created difficulty for the early Church."

My opponent has said, "You are kidding me ?? what's thissss ??? God visited sarah and give here a child !!!!! . Can not in any way that this nonsense is the Word of God." I don't see how God, the creator of life itself and everything, is unable to give someone a child. Anyways, I don't see the relevance in this statement to our topic. My opponent is questioning the authority of God rather than the divinity of the Bible.

My opponent has just said "You are kidding me ??" multiple times, but have failed to explain and elaborate why he rejects those verses. I will give an example. He has said that God visited Sarah and gave her a child. He clearly doesn't believe this. But he doesn't give any reasoning on why God, the creator of life itself, is unable to make someone pregnant.

I would like to point out that my opponent has failed to refute any of my arguments. For him to prove the Bible not the Word of God, he would have to refute all my arguments first. However, simply refuting my arguments will not be satisfactory. He would also have to create strong reasons on why the Bible is not the Word of God to win the debate, which he haven't done so, with full respect to my opponent of course.

I will restate my contentions, affirming that the Bible is the Word of God. I will also be adding more evidence to support my claims.

1) Prophecies
There were over 300 manuscripts predicting the arrival of Jesus. Some of these manuscripts were written hundreds of years before the coming of Christ, which could only mean that they were correct, which implies that they were inspired by God. Here is a comprehensive list: http://www.accordingtothescriptures.org...

2) Historical reliability
I would like to expand on my previous point about the Bible's historical reliability. I will focus on the Gospels. The Bible isn't some religious text or fictional literacy. The Encyclop"dia Britannica, 2002 Edition, says: "These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus." The fact that even opponents of Christianity affirmed the existence of Jesus shows that the prophecies were definitely fulfilled, which implies that they were inspired by God.

Alexander the Great can be found in most high school textbooks. According to Gary Habermas, the best known biography on Alexander the Great was written almost 400 years after his death! He also states that "1 Corinthians 15 checks in at about 55 AD... we have 25 years... When we learn about the early Caesars from Tacitus to Suetonius a 'good gap' is 100 years; 25 is incredible [for Jesus]." The fact that the earliest account of Jesus is so close to his death makes Corinthians, which is also a book of a Bible a remarkably accurate historical source.

3) Archaeological Evidence
Archaeological evidence supports the Bible. Many unbelievers tried disproving the Bible, only to have failed. All archaeological findings supports the bible, none can disprove it. Read some here: http://www.equip.org...

"William Lane Craig (sadly, a non-OSASer) does confirm Habermas recorded 1400 scholars (both skeptics and non-skeptics alike) whom 75% agree the tomb was empty and nearly all agree the original disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead bodily, for a vision wouldn't convince the disciples of resurrection." http://www3.telus.net...

4) Scientific Accuracy
The Bible is scientifically accurate, there is literally no scientific evidence which contradicts the Bible. Here are some examples of scientific accuracy.

-Big Bang, Origin
There are several other theories that agree with the Bible. One of these theories is the famous Big Bang Theory. The Big Bang states that the universe expanded from a single point, called singularity. At singularity, all laws of physics break down. This is supported by the Biblical view which states that God created the heavens and the Earth. Scientists have no clue what was before singularity. The Bible clearly stands by what it has been saying even before the Big Bang Theory was created.

-Location of earth
The Bible very clearly and distinctively shows that Earth is in space. This can be seen in Job 26:7, "He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." Job certainly have no way of knowing this. The only
way he could have written this is under the influence of God.

There are so many scientific views that are supported in the Bible. Again, there's no scientific evidence that contradicts the Bible, which means that the Bible cannot be proven false, only supported.

5) Consistent information/Independent sources
The Bible consists of 66 books. Most of these books came from different locations ranging from Asia, Europe and Africa. The Bible is also written over a long time scale. Despite all these factors, the Bible is consistent and never contradicts itself. This I think, is the biggest proof that the Bible is God-breathed. So many authors from so many locations from so different times, all fitting together perfectly, all with the same motives. This is impossible without the supervision of God. Check the map here: http://www.biblestudy.org...

There are also many evidence of Jesus outside the Bible. A Syrian philospher, Mara Bar-Serapion wrote in 70AD, "Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?...The wise king"Lived on in the teachings he enacted." There are many more witness accounts, some were even anti Christ, which told in even more detail the life of Jesus. Read more here: http://coldcasechristianity.com...

Conclusion
To conclude, my opponent has failed to refute any of my arguments. All my opponent has managed to say is "Are you kidding me???" without clearly explaining his reasoning. He has failed to realize that the Bible contains both good and bad so we may learn from our mistakes. If the Bible was concocted by humans as a propaganda, it will leave out all embarrassing statements or mistakes made by them, therefore failing the criterion of embarrassment, as explained before. The sheer and direct truthfulness of the Bible can only mean that it wasn't created by humans, but God.

For my opponent to win, he must first disprove all my arguments. However, as I said before that is not satisfactory. If he simply disproves my arguments, it will be a tie. My opponent will also have to come up with strong evidence and refute my arguments for him to win this debate.

I will restate my arguments. The prophecies included in the Bible again, shows that it was inspired by an omniscient being, God. It is also considered a historical document by most scholars, which proves it's reliability. The consistency of the books and the archaeological evidence found is also remarkable. The Bible is also scientific accurate and is impossible to disprove by science.

Therefore, we can only conclude that it is impossible for people alone to have written the Bible, the Bible must have been inspired by an omniscient (all knowing) God.

"All Scripture is God-breathed..." (2 Timothy 3:16)
Debate Round No. 3
v3rd3_fiv3r

Con

In the beginning, I thank my opponent on his long speech, and to being a referee, because he repeated that i has failed, and this is a problem I face here in this site, every person i debate with him, he judged that he is the winner, my brother, you gave your arguments and evidence and let the reader judge.
First, I will comment quickly, because I want to give my explanation about the Bible
With regard to the verse 1 John 5:7 treully i did not understand very well what the brother said, but my understanding it that he signed a syntax error or an error in the language, and was deleted part of the verse, my answer, my brother, that error does not delete the verse, we can not correct with delete lol.
As for the embarrassment and other things, my brother any logic speaks it ... Do we deal BAD with embarrassed verses, of course not .. then do you believe that a prophet of God practiced adultery with his two daughters ?? Of course not, my brother, the prophets, an example to us, you did not understand very well the significance of my previous argument, I wanted to say that all of this intruder to Gospel, and can not in any way be the word of God.
about "the creator of life itself, is unable to make someone pregnant." brother i tell you that god can do every thing, and we muslims believe in that but I am talking about the language used, the language of humans, because god does not need to come to give Sarah a child, but according to the language used in these verses, I, personally, I understand that god made sex with here (astaghfirou allah (ask forgiveness of God).
Eight we go back to the story from the beginning, we will find it is the second visit, ie that the aim of the visit is to give a child to Sarah, and leave you to understand
Here I remember the story of Sheikh Ahmed Deedat may Allah have mercy on him, in his interview with the priest about the difference between the language used in the Quran and the Bible about the birth of Jesus
in Quran in Surah Ale-Imran (The Family of Imran) 3:45-47
"45. when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah."
46. "He will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood, and he will be one of the righteous."
47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me." He said: "So (it will be) for Allah creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: "Be!" and it is.
but the language in the bible Luke 1:35
"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."
And if you look well in the language of the Bible,you understand and I personally understand that the Holy Spirit has sex with Mary (ask forgiveness of God), and this can not be the word of God.
My brother and I will ask you, as Ahmed Deedat, any story you prefer to tell to your daughter or your litel sister ?? And if you are honete, such as the priest, I am sure that you will choose the story of Quran
I think I'll let the explanation, which suposed to put it in this round to the next, and I will conclude by re-challenge, because my opponent did not answer me in the previous round:
I want here to challenge brother, that he read this chapter to his little sister, mother or with family, can you??
I forgot something, in terms of science in the Bible, my brother, if everyone who believes in the Bible reading the Quran, will find scientific discoveries what forget it in all what he read earlier, then I promise you, my brother, I will highlight the scientific errors in the Bible in the next round, If God wishes
And Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds
WeavingBird1917

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for his rebuttal.

Firstly, I want to explain something for my opponent very clearly. Judging by what he has said, I think he may have misunderstood me. I would like to ask Con whether he is using a translator? Sometimes direct translations might not be very accurate. Con has said "he repeated that i has failed", which is incorrect because the context is missing. I simply said "my opponent has failed to refute any of my arguments." I was not trying to say that he has "failed" the debate miserably. Instead I was simply pointing out that he have not tried to refute/disprove my points yet. I hope that helps explain my point.

Again, I think we might have a language barrier of some sort. I will make my language so that it is easier for Con to understand. The King James Version of the Bible was completed in the early 17th century whereas the Revised Standard Version was created in the 20th Century. In the King James Version, 1 John 5:7 was not meant to be there. It was later corrected in later versions.

I pointed out that even with the error, it doesn't change the meaning of the message. John 1:1 has already said that the Word was God from the beginning. We also know that the Holy Spirit comes from God. So even with or without the error, the true message stays the same.

Responses/Rebuttals

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

I think my opponent isn't getting the point. Firstly, the Bible records good and bad. It does not leave out the bad or embarrassing events. I will provide an analogy - It's like you go to heaven and you are asked to provide a detailed account of your life. Would you provide an account for all the good things you have done but leave out the all the bad acts you committed? No! That would be untruthful and will probably land you somewhere other than heaven! The Bible records everything, no matter good or bad. To record only the good and leave out any bad events would be "fabrication and falsification and distortion", using the words of Con. The Bible contains the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If the Bible was intended to mislead people, the story it contains will certainly be faultless and appear "too good to be true." Instead, some of the stories are embarrassing but dead honest, which no human author would do. This only concludes that it have to be God inspired. This also means that it fits the criterion of embarrassment perfectly, which proves that it is historically reliable by scholars, as stated in the previous round.

Secondly, this might be off topic, but I want to clarify it with my opponent. In the Bible, prophets do make mistakes. Only God is perfect. No human is without sin or mistakes. "We all make mistakes", except God. If my opponent is saying that a prophet have to be perfect that must means the prophet must be God himself.

Mary getting pregnant

Firstly my opponent has said: "I understand that god made sex with here" and "I personally understand that the Holy Spirit has sex with Mary." First of all, I can only conclude someone with a dirty and inappropriate mind is able to come up with that ridiculous statement. I really disagree with my opponent's decision to read the KJV version of the Bible if he simply cannot understand archaic English well. I recommend he uses the NIV version instead, which uses modern English. I will explain to him what Luke 1:35 means.

"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35)

Definition:
come upon: to meet (Macmillan dictionary)
overshadow: archaic for shelter or protect (dictionary.com)

"The Holy Spirit will meet you, and the power of the Most High will protect you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God." This is the simplified version. Again, I urge Con to not read KJV if he cannot understand archaic English.

I will now answer some of my opponent's questions for me:
"My brother and I will ask you, as Ahmed Deedat, any story you prefer to tell to your daughter or your litel sister ??"
-Personally, since I am a Christian, I will read the Christian NIV version of Luke 1:35

"I want here to challenge brother, that he read this chapter to his little sister, mother or with family, can you??"
-As Bible study? Sure, although it may be a little confusing at times.

Conclusion
My opponent has argued about the bad things recorded in the Bible, but that simply shows honesty and authenticity, which is why most scholars take it as a historical document too, as explained in detail in my argument in the previous round. My opponent has also argued about language issues, but we have seen that they were caused by his own lack of understanding of archaic English. This authenticity of the Bible shows that it couldn't have been made by human author's only, it was inspired by God.
Debate Round No. 4
v3rd3_fiv3r

Con

Initially Thanks to my opponent, the truth is I use a translator, so you know the difficulty that I face, but this does not mean that I did not understand what you mean, and my brother, but even if you you see that I have failed to disprove any of what you said, let the judje is up to the reader and is not for you, my brother, with all my respect.
and I have a lot to tell, but unfortunately, I am tired a lot in translation, so I try as much as possible to summary.
First, with respect to my opponent: I do not agree with you, my brother, the embarrassment never been a criterion for the credibility of anything, especially when it comes to the word of God. if we take this like a criter so i think that the magazine of pornography is the most credibale book in the world. no brother u lie to your self this can not be words of god.
Secondly, my brother, I did not say that the prophet do not make mistakes, but I said that the prophet an example to us, and can not be the role model that commits adultery with his two daughters, this incitement to adultery, in my logic and logic of lot most of people is, "if the prophet did adultery with his tow dauthers so why we do not do ??? " (Ask forgiveness of God). i think that this is incitement to adultery, and not the word of God
and if god want to give sarah a child he did not need to visit here to give here a child, add to this, if God needed to come to each child what he wanted to grant, with respect, this god is not eligible to worship.
As for the King James Version: my brother, you have been deleted many of verses and you have chage the meaning in pretext of language, and since it is the oldest, I think it's the closest to the truth, then you could explain to me how the humans correct the word of god ?? What is this logic that you speak brother ??
I will not prolong the talk I will go directly to the topic
this is some error in your book and it prouve that this is not from god because the god dont mistake
http://www.extremelysmart.com...
Add to this I found a magazine talking about the 50000 error in the Gospel !!!
We, my brother Muslims, we believe that the bible where some of the Word of God, but by a lot of changing, and everyone knows that this book contains the words of historians and the words of humans, words of pornography ( with all my respect) ....
God says in the Holy Quran :
"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby. " Surah Al-Baqarah (The Cow) 2:79
"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): "Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?" Surah Ale-Imran (The Family of Imran) 3:71
"(And remember) when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) to make it (the news of the coming of Prophet Muhammad and the religious knowledge) known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it, but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And indeed worst is that which they bought." Surah Ale-Imran (The Family of Imran) 3:187
At last I hope that I have brought the message, and ask God to guide us, and I hope in the fourth brother to read the Quran (http://www.noblequran.com...) , and compares, and, God willing, to guide him.
WeavingBird1917

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for his rebuttal again.

RESPONSES/REBUTTALS

Criterion of Embarrassment
Firstly, my opponent has said " the embarrassment never been a criterion for the credibility of anything, especially when it comes to the word of God." This is completely opposite of the truth! In this sentence he has made two points: (i) the "embarrassment of criterion" has never been a valid criterion; (ii) the "embarrassment of criterion" is not used to access the authenticity of the Word of God.

I will explain again what this means. The criterion of embarrassment is used by professional scholars to determine the authenticity of the Bible. John P. Meier wrote that it affirms scriptures that ""would have embarrassed or created difficulty for the early Church." This shows two points: (i) the "embarrassment of criterion" is a valid criterion; (ii) the "embarrassment of criterion is especially used to access the authenticity of the Word of God. These two facts contradict my opponent's argument entirely, therefore refuting it.

Lot and his two daughters
Secondly, I would like to clarify that it says in the Bible that "He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up." So basically he had no knowledge of it; he did not willingly commit adultery, he was "raped." Now would you accuse a victim of rape for committing adultery? If he was sober, as a prophet of God, he would have certainly said NO if asked. However, he was "drugged" by his daughters with wine.

My opponent says "the prophet an example to us." Let's imagine that you were the prophet. If you were drugged, then raped (all without the knowledge of it), would you be wrong? The answer is no! This shows two things: (i) debauchery leads to loss of self-control; (ii) bad company ruins a good character. Both these points are mentioned in other Bible verses. These mistakes shows us what happens if we choose the wrong choices. Without these verses, we are unable to learn from mistakes such as these. And leading back to the main point - will any human author fabricate mistakes as propaganda? No! This also fits the criterion of embarrassment and shows that only a wise omniscient being such as God would have his reasons.

Sarah/Mary's Child
"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35)

I don't think my opponent fully understands Luke 1:35. He has said: "if god want to give sarah a child he did not need to visit here to give here a child, add to this, if God needed to come to each child what he wanted to grant, with respect, this god is not eligible to worship." The only two words in that verse that would indicate that God has to come to Mary is "come upon." Firstly let's define "come upon." "Come upon/come on" in this context means "start to arrive or happen" or "to meet" Now let's define "happen" first. "Happen" in this context means "to supervene". "Supervene" means to "occur as an interruption or change to an existing situation."

So basically this is how it goes:
The Holy Ghost shall come upon
The Holy Spirit shall arrive/happen
The Holy Spirit shall supervene
If you want to define supervene:
The Holy Spirit shall occur as an interruption and change to an existing situation

Now let's look at the second definition, "to meet." My opponent thinks that God has "to meet" Sarah where she is, location wise. This is simply a devastatingly false assumption! "To meet" in this case doesn't mean "to meet" location wise, but time wise. What this simply means is "the Holy Spirit shall meet you later", not the Holy Spirit has to come to you.

Now let's investigate this even further. In my first point, I said "the Holy Spirit shall occur..." That itself is time wise, not location wise! Now let's look at the relationship between "to occur" and "to meet". "The verb occur comes from the Latin, occurrere, "to meet" or "to present itself." When something occurs, it comes into being... Events can also occur, meaning "take place," like a meeting that will occur tomorrow." http://www.vocabulary.com...

This shows another meaning is "to present itself." "The Holy Spirit shall present itself." Again, it is time wise, not location wise. My source above has said "When something occurs, it comes into being."

To sum it up, my opponent has said "he did not need to visit here to give here a child." I have shown that his understanding of the verse was incorrect. He understood "come upon" as "to come upon" location wise, however the true meaning meant time wise. I have also checked 3 different variants of the phrase "come upon", and they did not mean "to visit" in this context, but rather "to meet" (in time), "to occur", "to supervene", "to present itself".

Biblical errors
My opponent has said: "my brother, you have been deleted many of verses and you have change the meaning in pretext of language, and since it is the oldest, I think it's the closest to the truth, then you could explain to me how the humans correct the word of god ?? What is this logic that you speak brother ??"

Firstly, I already explained why that single line were deleted, they were illegitimately there in the first place. I have already explained why it wouldn't change the meaning of the overall message even if it wasn't removed. However, my opponent has said "you have been deleted many of verses", which is false, as only 1 verse (which was illegitimately there) was removed. He also doesn't disagree with my explanation, meaning that he accepts it.

Secondly, I have already explained and given many examples of why we have to rewrite the Bible over time due to language changes. You can revert back to my previous arguments to see my reasoning. Again, my opponent has not refuted that explanation, however he asks the same question again, despite me already making a long detailed explanation on the issue.

Scientific errors
My opponent has just given a single link regarding the scientific errors in the Bible. He knows that it is impossible for me to respond to everything without running out of space. If he expects me to respond to a point, I urge him to write it in his arguments, not just giving me a link with 25 different points.

The website truly takes "taking things literally" to the extremes. We know that we cannot take things in the Bible literally. For example- Jesus and his wise his parables. Mathew 13:13 writes "This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand." Many people ask "Should we take the Bible literally?" Jesus has already said that he speaks in parables. Would you take a parable literally? No! For this reason, the website is unwise to take everything literally. It is up to the reader to determine the literary genre of the passage they are reading.

"That is to say, the Bible will only make sense to Christians and requires the Holy Spirit"s interpretation. Why? Because it contains a spiritual message, as Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 2:6-14. It is a mystery, that requires spiritual understanding." http://www.reclaimingthemind.org...

CONTENTIONS

I will now restate my contentions, proving that the Bible is the Word of God. Unfortunately, due to my long rebuttal, I am unable to provide the full explanations for my arguments. Please refer to round 3 for the explanations.

1) Prophecies
There were over 300 manuscripts predicting the arrival of Jesus. Some of these manuscripts were written hundreds of years before the coming of Christ, which could only mean that they were correct, which implies that they were inspired by God. Here is a comprehensive list: http://www.accordingtothescriptures.org...

2) Historical reliability
The Bible isn't some religious text or fictional literacy. The Encyclop"dia Britannica, 2002 Edition, says: "These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus." The fact that even opponents of Christianity affirmed the existence of Jesus shows that the prophecies were definitely fulfilled, which implies that they were inspired by God.

3) Archaeological Evidence
Archaeological evidence supports the Bible. Many unbelievers tried disproving the Bible, only to have failed. All archaeological findings supports the bible, none can disprove it. Read some here: http://www.equip.org...

4) Scientific Accuracy
The Bible is scientifically accurate, there is literally no scientific evidence which contradicts the Bible. Refer back to round 3 for the examples.

5) Consistent information/Independent sources
The Bible consists of 66 books. Most of these books came from different locations ranging from Asia, Europe and Africa. The Bible is also written over a long time scale. Despite all these factors, the Bible is consistent and never contradicts itself. This I think, is the biggest proof that the Bible is God-breathed. So many authors from so many locations from so different times, all fitting together perfectly, all with the same motives. This is impossible without the supervision of God. Check the map here: http://www.biblestudy.org...

Again, please refer to round 3 for the full explanations.

CONCLUSION

To conclude, none of my arguments have been refuted by my opponent. It is very clear that the Bible wasn't written just by humans as propaganda due to the truthfully honest stories and the remarkable accuracy of it's prophecies and scientific evidence. The honesty and the accuracy, combined with the consistent information from different sources can only mean shows it's incomparable reliability. This can only mean it was inspired by God.
Debate Round No. 5
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by HardRockHallelujah 1 year ago
HardRockHallelujah
Sorry, one last thing....

You seem to misunderstand how the atonement of Jesus works. Jesus died for our sins, yes, but that doesn't mean we now have a license to sin. The NT explicitly condemns such an attitude in Romans 6:1-4 and 1 John 2:1-5.
Posted by HardRockHallelujah 1 year ago
HardRockHallelujah
So if you want to say the NT is unreliable, then all the more we should reject the Qur'an as an accurate source of information on the Historical Jesus as it comes 600 years after the events of Jesus while the NT comes 18-65 years after the events of Jesus' life.
Posted by HardRockHallelujah 1 year ago
HardRockHallelujah
And the NT was written by those closely associated with Jesus' disciples or personal disciples of Jesus himself.
Posted by HardRockHallelujah 1 year ago
HardRockHallelujah
Let me just correct you on 2 things:

First of all, you seem to not understand what the nature of Jesus' message was. Yes, Jesus preached a Gospel, but what he preached wasn't written down until after Jesus left. Jesus never read from a supposed "Islamic Injeel". Jesus' message was purely oral. Never did he give his followers a book. After Jesus left the scene, it was then that the NT was written between 48-95 A.D. The NT are the only documents that go back to the 1st century. There is absolutely no evidence that an Islamic Injeel existed, so you are being anachronistic by saying an Islamic Injeel existed in the 1st century.

Second of all, you quote Surah 2:79 to prove that the Bible has been corrupted. Surah 2:79 when read IN CONTEXT actually has nothing to do with Bible corruption. This verse is talking about Jews and Christians who MISINTERPRET the Word of God; and as a result, write books with their owns hands saying "this is from God".
Proof of this is the context:

Do you, the believers in truth, desire the unbelievers to believe you? There was a group among them who would hear the word of God and understand it. Then they would purposely MISINTERPRET IT. (Surah 2:75, Sarwar translation; emphasis mine)

Some of them are illiterate and HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE BOOK except for what they know from legends and fantasy. They are only relying on conjecture. Woe to those who write the Book themselves and say, "This is from God," so that they may sell it for a small price! Woe unto them for what they have done and for what they have gained! (Surah 2:78-79, Sarwar translation; emphasis mine)

So in context, Surah 2:79 isn't talking about textual corruption. It's talking about Jews/Christians MISINTERPRETING the scriptures, therefore writing books and saying "this is from God", not corrupting the text of the scriptures.
Posted by v3rd3_fiv3r 1 year ago
v3rd3_fiv3r
As for your saying (You keep saying the Gospel has been corrupted, but you don't even realize that would prove Islam false, because Islam confirms the Gospel as un-corrupt), you prove your ignorance of Islam and the Quran, because God told us that the INJIL has been corrupted
God says in the Quran - Surah Al-Baqarah (The Cow) 2:79
"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby"
Posted by v3rd3_fiv3r 1 year ago
v3rd3_fiv3r
No, my brother, ... you lie to yourself, the Quran has challenged you to come with surah of the like,
you are looking for one to anoint your sins and you find it in the Christianity.
Posted by v3rd3_fiv3r 1 year ago
v3rd3_fiv3r
You do not understand something of what I said, and do not tell at me what I did not say, I said that Muhammad, peace be upon him confirmed what is between his hands, that God is one and what is common in the two religions
In order to understand well the explanation I will repeat to you
We Muslims believe in the INJILE ( translated gospel ) which was revealed to Jesus, not the Gospel of John, or the Gospel of Mark or the Gospel of Luke ... So if you have the Gospel of Jesus (and this is hopeless) , I'll tell you that it what we believe.
As for what you call the Gospel is a combination of all words .. attributed to John and Luke and ... and ... most of them did not write something of what is said about him today gospel.
Posted by HardRockHallelujah 1 year ago
HardRockHallelujah
This is one of the reasons I am no longer a Muslim, the Qur'an is a self-refuting book.
Posted by HardRockHallelujah 1 year ago
HardRockHallelujah
v3rd3, you already admitted to me that the Qur'an confirms "WHAT IS BETWEEN HIS HANDS". You wrote it, so you can't deny yourself.
If you agree that the Qur'an confirms the Gospel at Muhammad's time, then follow that to its logical conclusion, and you just proved that the Gospel IS the Word of God. How, you ask? Simple.
The Gospel at the time of Muhammad is virtually identical to what we read today. So therefore, if Muhammad confirmed the Gospels he had access to, that means he is confirming the Gospels we have today.
You keep saying the Gospel has been corrupted, but you don't even realize that would prove Islam false, because Islam confirms the Gospel as un-corrupt.
If the Qur'an confirms our Gospel, then Islam is false, as Islam denies doctrine contained in the Gospel.
Posted by v3rd3_fiv3r 1 year ago
v3rd3_fiv3r
If possible my brother, I want to clarify something
We do not believe in this present Gospel (because many think so) , we believe the INJILE (translated gospel) does not exist in this day. :)
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